Are You *ANGRY*, Yet?!?

JD northgate76 at GMAIL.COM
Fri Oct 26 00:11:19 MDT 2007


Boys, you stop fighting and finish your breakfast RIGHT NOW!

On 10/25/07, Stephen A. Frye <s.frye at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>          *YOU come on, Stephen! I posted a piece on government handouts
> and wasted tax dollars - all of a sudden I'm some sort of prejudiced
> goofball...............*
>
>
>
> John, that's enough.  Nowhere, at any time did I say, write, imply,
> suggest that you are prejudiced, a goofball, anything.  That is a totally
> inappropriate comment from you, and it is childish misbehavior.
>
>
>  This has gone past absurd. I read that you believe that poverty cannot
> lead to crime.
>
>
>          *I stand by that claim, too. *
>
>
>
> Stand where you want.
>
>
>  I believe that it can. I believe that many impoverished are desperate,
> and I believe that desperate people can do desperate things. You disagree.
>
>
>          *Because I know better! I've been around many economically
> deprived people - both here and off-shore. There are obvious signs that
> suggest to me that crime - specifically street gangs (which is what fueled
> this exchange in the first doggone place) - is a culturally-driven thing.
> *
>
>
>
> And I know better, too.  I, too, have experiences and have seen things.
>
> No, John.  Street gangs did NOT fuel this.  What fueled this was my overt
> reaction to the article that you cited which singled out Mexicans.  You
> brought up gangs all on your own.
>
>
>  We can't point a finger and relieve ourselves of responsibility. We
> squirm at that thought. Am I accusing you of doing that. No? Are you doing
> that? I don't know, and I don't care.
>
>
>          *My conscience is clear......................*
>
>
>
> Good for you.  That's wonderful.  And I mean that sincerely.  I don't have
> time in my life to even begin to try to judge someone else along these
> lines.
>
>
>   There are no guarantees - ever (save death and taxes.) I never made a
> claim to the contrary.
>
>
>          *I'm just pointing out that even the best-known causes of gang
> membership don't always mean that gangs are an inevitable consequence. *
>
>
> I never claimed that anything is inevitable.
>
>
>   And don't go off the deep end being so sure you have seen the worst
> there is to see.
>
>
>          *I didn't before, although I don't know how much worse conditions
> can be than those I witnessed in Jamaica. I was making a point - one that
> you simply refuse to accept. *
>
>
> Come on, John. You're above this.
>
>
>          *Above WHAT? Calling another out on a mistaken notion?
> Please.................*
>
>
>
> Telling me that I refuse to accept something when I have witnessed it to
> the contrary.
>
>
>
>  All right. I spoke, just today (based solely on this exchange) with a
> Jamaican native. He totally disagrees with your claims. Not about the
> poverty you saw, just about the related crime). But he only was born there,
> and grew up there. What could he possibly know?
>
>
>          *Gee whiz, Batman! I'm not sure! Get him on-line and we can
> interrogate him.................*
>
>
>
> So is it me, or is it him that you don't believe?  Or is it simply that
> someone has personal experience that questions your claim?  And more
> importantly, if you were face to face and he held firm, would you believe
> him?  Besides, it is not relevant.  This whole thing about gangs in other
> countries is a deflective thread you created and that you are perpetuating.
>
>
>           *Let's disagree and say that poverty isn't a major factor. Can
> we do that?*
>
>
>
> No, because I believe poverty can be an awesome contributing factor.
>
>
>  You don't believe that. Impasse.
>
>
>          *Mexican standoff, no pun intended..............................
>
> *
>
> Like any other discussion of religion or politics, neither side ever
> bends. Are you going to change your mind? Not likely. Me? Not likely either.
> Proof? Society, especially on the world level, is extremely complex and
> there are infinite interactions. Proof isn't possible. 'Prove it" is
> something we used to scream at each other as kids.
>
>
>          *We need to lean on solid evidence a whale of a lot more as
> adults, I'll tell you that.................*
>
>
>
> Hmmm.  When do think we'll all start that?  I've been in this group for
> about 14 years.  I have seen dozens, if not hundreds, of accusations fly and
> perpetuate with absolutely no evidence.
>
>
>           *Proof is about the only thing that will make a believer out of
> me. I am like my mother.......a born skeptic.
>
> *
>
> I liked all fields of math EXCEPT Geometry. All those proofs. Yuck.
>
>
>          *Where would we be without geometry?!?
>
> *
>
> I think poverty can lead to crime.
> I think our morality is totally sad at best.
>
>
>          *That's a cultural thing, too. Our morality went down in flames
> during the "anything goes '60s." *
>
>
>
> yep.  And we keep tying more weights to it.
>
>
>  I think Bush is the biggest boob the white house has ever seen.
>
>
>          *I disagree with Bush on a number of key issues - the borders
> being just one of them. However, I believe that FDR was a bigger boob and
> violated the Constitution more often. *
>
>
>
> Could be.  I can't debate that.  But I do believe that history will reveal
> even more boobiness about "W".
>
>
>
>  I think the illegal alien problem is real, but was also a very strategic
> (and very successful) decoy by the three stooges to draw attention away form
> the utter failure in Iraq.
>
>
>          *I don't see the "utter failure" in Iraq, either. We deposed a
> dangerous man. We've been able to neutralize many of the Al Qaeda leaders.
> We turned around and built that country schools, utilities and gave them
> freedom like they've never known. *
>
>
>
> Some of the generals argue with that.  My son served in the middle east.
> MY other son's best friend is on his third (mandatory) tour over there.
>
>
>  I think abortion is wrong.
>
>
>          *Without question............
>
> *
>
> I am in favor of the death penalty - had quite an opportunity to probe the
> depths of my own conscience as foreman of a jury on a four month trial
> seeking the death penalty.
> I think Bush is a disgrace (but I repeat myself).
> I think we'll see a national sales tax/consumption tax, but it will really
> bite the boomers. The list goes on, and I am pretty darned well set in all
> of these.
>
>
>          *I doubt very seriously that we'll see a consumption tax -
> especially if the Hilldebeast occupies the WH. She's the female version of
> Karl Marx.
>
> *
>
>  Everything I wrote derived form the article YOU cited about schools in
> the U.S. Neither the article nor my comments encompassed what you saw in
> other countries.
>
>
>          *The article was about government handouts and wasted tax
> dollars............*
>
>
> Singling out the Mexicans and their conduct in classrooms, witnessed by a
> single author.
>
>
>          *Who happened to be an administrator at that particular
> school.......................*
>
>
>
> Like I wrote - singling out Mexicans.  That administrator may have been
> writing about a single school, but the author did so with sweeping
> generalizations.
>
>
>  Population concentrations are also greater in these big cities, as are
> concentrations of ghettos etc. And my Jamaican co-worker says there are
> gangs. He's likely wrong, huh?
>
>
>          *I saw none and neither did my daughter, during her visit in
> July. Again, that means nothing, right? *
>
>
>
> Your daughter visited in July.  you visited at some time for likely a
> short period of time.  he lived there for 30 years.
>
>
>   if you are claiming there are NO gangs, then you're blind to it.
>
>
>          *In the Caribbean?!? Don't make me laugh! I went all through the
> Caribbean and there was no trace of street gangs and related violence
> anywhere! *
>
>
> See above.
>
>  Crime is driven by many things.
>
>
>          *Crime is sin, Stephen. Sin is the product of a wicked heart. *
>
>
> I never claimed it wasn't a sin. But severe hunger can (doesn't always)
> (so sad to have to delimit everything) lead a person to otherwise abnormal -
> illegal - behavior.
>
>
>          *I can only comment on what I know..............my own life, my
> parents' lives and grandparents..............*
>
>
>
> Ahhh.  We are making progress.  Your claims, then, lie solely within your
> scope of direct observation and experience.  That is excellent
> clarification.
>
>
>   Your claim here is great for allowing us to not try to correct it, but
> rather to turn a blind eye.
>
>
>          *By throwing money at it?!? Is this corrective??? I sincerely beg
> to differ and I'm sure there are stats to show that federal spending in the
> inner cities has EXACERBATED the problem, not corrected it! In 1965,
> Lyndon Johnson boldly predicted that "poverty could be completely wiped out
> by $10-million in federal spending." Here we are, 42 years and well-beyond
> $100-million later and........well, whaddya know?!? Poverty is STILLthere! How'd that happen, anyway?
> *
>
>
> Get off this "throw money at it" line.
>
>
>          *YOU'RE making the allegation that we've turned a blind eye to
> it............*
>
>
>
> yes, I did.  Please point to where I mentioned anything at all about
> throwing money at it.  One citing would be fine.
>
>
>  I do not believe that we as Christians have fulfilled our Savior's
> commandment to Love one Another as He has loved us.
>
>
>          *In what way? *
>
>
>
> In any way.
>
>
>   Trying to better the situation takes that good old "Love one another"
> statement left us by our Savior, and, I am sad to say, we aren't too darned
> good at it; it just ain't convenient.
>
>
>          *Well, love equals money........sonuvagun!! Who knew?!? How's
> this grab you.......according to the Brookings Institute (a liberal
> thinktank), America spent $137-BILLION for public assistance in 1988 ALONE!
> Brookings whines unhappily that less that a third of that was paid out in
> cash, however. The rest was distributed through in-kind transfer programs
> like food stamps, housing vouchers, and Medicaid, which can be used only for
> buying food, housing, and medical care, respectively. *
>
>
> Here you go again. Stop putting words in my mouth.
>
>
>          *Then, EXPLAIN yourself...................*
>
>
>
> I don't have all of the answers, John.  never claimed to.  But I do know
> we are the richest, smartest, best off people in the world, and I believe
> that each of us will be asked what we did with that great gift to better
> those less fortunate.  I believe that with all of my heart.  I don't know
> that I am ready to answer that.  Frankly, I don't care one way or another
> abut anyone else answering that.  It's not my place.  I believe that in a
> nation so rich, it's wrong for people to be hungry.  I think it's wrong for
> people to die and suffer because they don't have enough money. NO NO NO NO
> NO NO.  I am not asking you to pay for anything or to throw money at it.  I
> don't know the best answer.  On the other hand, I believe we should put as
> much energy into finding the answer as we do into killing, war, football,
> baseball, etc.  I firmly believe that poverty is something we will never
> fully conquer.  But even more I believe that is NOT an excuse to not
> constantly, relentlessly try to accomplish.  I wish I had an answer.  I
> don't.  But then again, maybe that's part of the challenge we were given.
> Find it.
>
>
>
> I've been doing that all along.  You disagree.  I have no problem with
> that.
>
>
>           *Pardon me, while I don the sackcloth and ashes, sit myself down
> in a corner with a duncecap on and feel unabashed shame..............*
>
>
>
> We should all do it.
>
>
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