Are You *ANGRY*, Yet?!?

John A. Quayle blueoval57 at VERIZON.NET
Fri Oct 26 01:50:24 MDT 2007


At 02:11 AM 10/26/2007, JD wrote:

>Boys, you stop fighting and finish your breakfast RIGHT NOW!

         Yes, mommy.............                 :-(


>On 10/25/07, Stephen A. Frye 
><<mailto:s.frye at verizon.net>s.frye at verizon.net > wrote:
>>
>>          YOU come on, Stephen! I posted a piece on government 
>> handouts and wasted tax dollars - all of a sudden I'm some sort of 
>> prejudiced goofball...............
>
>
>John, that's enough.  Nowhere, at any time did I say, write, imply, 
>suggest that you are prejudiced, a goofball, anything.  That is a 
>totally inappropriate comment from you, and it is childish misbehavior.
>
>
>>>This has gone past absurd. I read that you believe that poverty 
>>>cannot lead to crime.
>>
>>          I stand by that claim, too.
>
>
>Stand where you want.
>
>
>>>I believe that it can. I believe that many impoverished are 
>>>desperate, and I believe that desperate people can do desperate 
>>>things. You disagree.
>>
>>          Because I know better! I've been around many economically 
>> deprived people - both here and off-shore. There are obvious signs 
>> that suggest to me that crime - specifically street gangs (which 
>> is what fueled this exchange in the first doggone place) - is a 
>> culturally-driven thing.
>
>
>And I know better, too.  I, too, have experiences and have seen things.
>
>No, John.  Street gangs did NOT fuel this.  What fueled this was my 
>overt reaction to the article that you cited which singled out 
>Mexicans.  You brought up gangs all on your own.
>
>
>>>We can't point a finger and relieve ourselves of responsibility. 
>>>We squirm at that thought. Am I accusing you of doing that. No? 
>>>Are you doing that? I don't know, and I don't care.
>>
>>          My conscience is clear......................
>
>
>Good for you.  That's wonderful.  And I mean that sincerely.  I 
>don't have time in my life to even begin to try to judge someone 
>else along these lines.
>
>
>>>>>There are no guarantees - ever (save death and taxes.) I never 
>>>>>made a claim to the contrary.
>>>>
>>>>          I'm just pointing out that even the best-known causes 
>>>> of gang membership don't always mean that gangs are an inevitable consequence.
>>>
>>>I never claimed that anything is inevitable.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>And don't go off the deep end being so sure you have seen the 
>>>>>>>worst there is to see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          I didn't before, although I don't know how much worse 
>>>>>> conditions can be than those I witnessed in Jamaica. I was 
>>>>>> making a point - one that you simply refuse to accept.
>>>>>
>>>>>Come on, John. You're above this.
>>>>
>>>>          Above WHAT? Calling another out on a mistaken notion? 
>>>> Please.................
>
>
>Telling me that I refuse to accept something when I have witnessed 
>it to the contrary.
>
>
>
>>>All right. I spoke, just today (based solely on this exchange) 
>>>with a Jamaican native. He totally disagrees with your claims. Not 
>>>about the poverty you saw, just about the related crime). But he 
>>>only was born there, and grew up there. What could he possibly know?
>>
>>          Gee whiz, Batman! I'm not sure! Get him on-line and we 
>> can interrogate him.................
>
>
>So is it me, or is it him that you don't believe?  Or is it simply 
>that someone has personal experience that questions your claim?  And 
>more importantly, if you were face to face and he held firm, would 
>you believe him?  Besides, it is not relevant.  This whole thing 
>about gangs in other countries is a deflective thread you created 
>and that you are perpetuating.
>
>
>>          Let's disagree and say that poverty isn't a major factor. 
>> Can we do that?
>
>
>No, because I believe poverty can be an awesome contributing factor.
>
>
>>>You don't believe that. Impasse.
>>
>>          Mexican standoff, no pun intended..............................
>>
>>>Like any other discussion of religion or politics, neither side 
>>>ever bends. Are you going to change your mind? Not likely. Me? Not 
>>>likely either. Proof? Society, especially on the world level, is 
>>>extremely complex and there are infinite interactions. Proof isn't 
>>>possible. 'Prove it" is something we used to scream at each other as kids.
>>
>>          We need to lean on solid evidence a whale of a lot more 
>> as adults, I'll tell you that.................
>
>
>Hmmm.  When do think we'll all start that?  I've been in this group 
>for about 14 years.  I have seen dozens, if not hundreds, of 
>accusations fly and perpetuate with absolutely no evidence.
>
>
>>          Proof is about the only thing that will make a believer 
>> out of me. I am like my mother.......a born skeptic.
>>
>>>I liked all fields of math EXCEPT Geometry. All those proofs. Yuck.
>>
>>          Where would we be without geometry?!?
>>
>>>I think poverty can lead to crime.
>>>I think our morality is totally sad at best.
>>
>>          That's a cultural thing, too. Our morality went down in 
>> flames during the "anything goes '60s."
>
>
>yep.  And we keep tying more weights to it.
>
>
>>>I think Bush is the biggest boob the white house has ever seen.
>>
>>          I disagree with Bush on a number of key issues - the 
>> borders being just one of them. However, I believe that FDR was a 
>> bigger boob and violated the Constitution more often.
>
>
>Could be.  I can't debate that.  But I do believe that history will 
>reveal even more boobiness about "W".
>
>
>
>>>I think the illegal alien problem is real, but was also a very 
>>>strategic (and very successful) decoy by the three stooges to draw 
>>>attention away form the utter failure in Iraq.
>>
>>          I don't see the "utter failure" in Iraq, either. We 
>> deposed a dangerous man. We've been able to neutralize many of the 
>> Al Qaeda leaders. We turned around and built that country schools, 
>> utilities and gave them freedom like they've never known.
>
>
>Some of the generals argue with that.  My son served in the middle 
>east.  MY other son's best friend is on his third (mandatory) tour over there.
>
>
>>>I think abortion is wrong.
>>
>>          Without question............
>>
>>>I am in favor of the death penalty - had quite an opportunity to 
>>>probe the depths of my own conscience as foreman of a jury on a 
>>>four month trial seeking the death penalty.
>>>I think Bush is a disgrace (but I repeat myself).
>>>I think we'll see a national sales tax/consumption tax, but it 
>>>will really bite the boomers. The list goes on, and I am pretty 
>>>darned well set in all of these.
>>
>>          I doubt very seriously that we'll see a consumption tax - 
>> especially if the Hilldebeast occupies the WH. She's the female 
>> version of Karl Marx.
>>
>>>>>Everything I wrote derived form the article YOU cited about 
>>>>>schools in the U.S. Neither the article nor my comments 
>>>>>encompassed what you saw in other countries.
>>>>
>>>>          The article was about government handouts and wasted 
>>>> tax dollars............
>>>
>>>Singling out the Mexicans and their conduct in classrooms, 
>>>witnessed by a single author.
>>
>>          Who happened to be an administrator at that particular 
>> school.......................
>
>
>Like I wrote - singling out Mexicans.  That administrator may have 
>been writing about a single school, but the author did so with 
>sweeping generalizations.
>
>
>>>Population concentrations are also greater in these big cities, as 
>>>are concentrations of ghettos etc. And my Jamaican co-worker says 
>>>there are gangs. He's likely wrong, huh?
>>
>>          I saw none and neither did my daughter, during her visit 
>> in July. Again, that means nothing, right?
>
>
>Your daughter visited in July.  you visited at some time for likely 
>a short period of time.  he lived there for 30 years.
>
>
>>>>>if you are claiming there are NO gangs, then you're blind to it.
>>>>
>>>>          In the Caribbean?!? Don't make me laugh! I went all 
>>>> through the Caribbean and there was no trace of street gangs and 
>>>> related violence anywhere!
>>>
>>>See above.
>>>
>>>>>Crime is driven by many things.
>>>>
>>>>          Crime is sin, Stephen. Sin is the product of a wicked heart.
>>>
>>>I never claimed it wasn't a sin. But severe hunger can (doesn't 
>>>always) (so sad to have to delimit everything) lead a person to 
>>>otherwise abnormal - illegal - behavior.
>>
>>          I can only comment on what I know..............my own 
>> life, my parents' lives and grandparents..............
>
>
>Ahhh.  We are making progress.  Your claims, then, lie solely within 
>your scope of direct observation and experience.  That is excellent 
>clarification.
>
>
>>>>>Your claim here is great for allowing us to not try to correct 
>>>>>it, but rather to turn a blind eye.
>>>>
>>>>          By throwing money at it?!? Is this corrective??? I 
>>>> sincerely beg to differ and I'm sure there are stats to show 
>>>> that federal spending in the inner cities has EXACERBATED the 
>>>> problem, not corrected it! In 1965, Lyndon Johnson boldly 
>>>> predicted that "poverty could be completely wiped out by 
>>>> $10-million in federal spending." Here we are, 42 years and 
>>>> well-beyond $100-million later and........well, whaddya know?!? 
>>>> Poverty is STILL there! How'd that happen, anyway?
>>>
>>>Get off this "throw money at it" line.
>>
>>          YOU'RE making the allegation that we've turned a blind 
>> eye to it............
>
>
>yes, I did.  Please point to where I mentioned anything at all about 
>throwing money at it.  One citing would be fine.
>
>
>>>I do not believe that we as Christians have fulfilled our Savior's 
>>>commandment to Love one Another as He has loved us.
>>
>>          In what way?
>
>
>In any way.
>
>
>>>>>Trying to better the situation takes that good old "Love one 
>>>>>another" statement left us by our Savior, and, I am sad to say, 
>>>>>we aren't too darned good at it; it just ain't convenient.
>>>>
>>>>          Well, love equals money........sonuvagun!! Who knew?!? 
>>>> How's this grab you.......according to the Brookings Institute 
>>>> (a liberal thinktank), America spent $137-BILLION for public 
>>>> assistance in 1988 ALONE! Brookings whines unhappily that less 
>>>> that a third of that was paid out in cash, however. The rest was 
>>>> distributed through in-kind transfer programs like food stamps, 
>>>> housing vouchers, and Medicaid, which can be used only for 
>>>> buying food, housing, and medical care, respectively.
>>>
>>>Here you go again. Stop putting words in my mouth.
>>
>>          Then, EXPLAIN yourself...................
>
>
>I don't have all of the answers, John.  never claimed to.  But I do 
>know we are the richest, smartest, best off people in the world, and 
>I believe that each of us will be asked what we did with that great 
>gift to better those less fortunate.  I believe that with all of my 
>heart.  I don't know that I am ready to answer that.  Frankly, I 
>don't care one way or another abut anyone else answering that.  It's 
>not my place.  I believe that in a nation so rich, it's wrong for 
>people to be hungry.  I think it's wrong for people to die and 
>suffer because they don't have enough money. NO NO NO NO NO NO.  I 
>am not asking you to pay for anything or to throw money at it.  I 
>don't know the best answer.  On the other hand, I believe we should 
>put as much energy into finding the answer as we do into killing, 
>war, football, baseball, etc.  I firmly believe that poverty is 
>something we will never fully conquer.  But even more I believe that 
>is NOT an excuse to not constantly, relentlessly try to 
>accomplish.  I wish I had an answer.  I don't.  But then again, 
>maybe that's part of the challenge we were given.  Find it.
>
>
>
>I've been doing that all along.  You disagree.  I have no problem with that.
>
>
>>          Pardon me, while I don the sackcloth and ashes, sit 
>> myself down in a corner with a duncecap on and feel unabashed 
>> shame..............
>
>
>We should all do it.
>
>
>
>
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>10/25/2007 5:38 PM
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