[Rushtalk] No Can Do!

Dennis Putnam dap1 at bellsouth.net
Mon May 19 11:00:29 MDT 2014


We'll have to agree to disagree, particularly with respect to
definitions. So what is your proposal to fix the system?

On 5/19/2014 12:46 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
> You are relying on excerpts to draw a broad-brush conclusion.  Not
> logical.  And my guess is -- your mind was made up before you read a
> word.  The idea sprang from a non-Conservative, so, by definition, it
> has to be rejected out of hand.
>
>  
>
> And I don't the ideas behind common core are necessarily wrong.  I do
> think they are not perfect.  I don't applaud what is wrong, but I
> certainly applaud an honest effort to improve rather than just sitting
> back criticizing and complaining. That's all we do.  We find fault
> with everything and, as a result, do nothing, and that approach is
> failing our kids and our country.
>
>  
>
> We're not really educating kids very well now.  You keep using the
> word "indoctrination".  Do we really want to do anything different?
>  We just want to indoctrinate them with our thinking as opposed to
> liberal thinking.  But it's still indoctrination.
>
>  
>
> We have to get past this.  I want to see our kids learn math and
> science.  The tried approach of sitting back and doing nothing or just
> constantly complaining -  simply doesn't work.  The system is failing.
>
>  
>
> *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
> *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 9:24 AM
> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>  
>
> That seems to be the implication. You seemed to be saying that my
> excerpts from the GA DoE are not what is in the books you want me to
> review "cover to cover." Either they are or they are not. If they are
> not then the DoE is lying. If they are then your reply makes no sense.
>
> I, on the other hand, cannot applaud the "let's do something, even if
> it is wrong" philosophy. Especially when the "something" is being
> driven by politics and the desire to indoctrinate rather then educate.
>
> On 5/19/2014 12:02 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>     I am not saying anyone is lying.  You constantly go off the deep
>     end.  You are so against anything that isn't the traditional way
>     of doing things that you seem to refuse to even consider anything
>     else.  We're in the 21^st century.  Like it or not, things are not
>     the same as they were 200 years ago, and they never will be.  Adapt.
>
>      
>
>     I have gone to countless common core meetings now at the high
>     school.  I have heard and seen the presentations.  I disagree with
>     some of it, and I agree with some of it.
>
>      
>
>     What we have is not working.  Plain and simple.  Our European
>     counterparts (and Asian for that matter) are leaps and bounds
>     ahead of us.  The U.S. is pathetically far behind most of the
>     civilized world in math and science and continuing to slip even
>     farther.
>
>      
>
>     As I wrote:  Common Core is not perfect.  Far from it.  But rather
>     than just sitting back on our dead asses complaining -- or maybe
>     waiting for the unrealizable perfect answer, at least someone is
>     trying to do something to better our students and to better our
>     overall position in the world.  I applaud the effort, flawed as it is.
>
>      
>
>     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>     *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 8:17 AM
>     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>      
>
>     OK, so you are saying GA DoE is lying about the contents. If that
>     is the case then I guess we are in bigger trouble than we thought.
>
>     Here's another absurd example that the DoE is lying about:
>
>     The student is shown a picture of 4 containers filled with various
>     levels of liquid. The containers are graduated up to 6L.
>
>     Traditional and Common Core solution to part one is the same,
>     label the volume of each container:
>
>     1: 5L
>     2: 3L
>     3: 6L
>     4: 1L
>
>     Part 2 asks, if container 1 is poured into container 3, what is
>     the volume in container 3 after the pour?
>
>     Traditional math solution:
>
>     It can't be done
>     or
>     6L plus 5L on the floor
>
>     Common Core solution:
>
>     11L
>
>     Again you complain about pissing and moaning but have not
>     explained your plan on how to improve a political driven education
>     system without politics.
>
>     So your philosophy is to try something, even if it is wrong? We
>     know what works from the results of the 50's and 60's. Why the
>     strong resistance to returning to what we know worked? Answer:
>     because politics has infested the education system to the point
>     where the objective is not education.
>
>     On 5/19/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>         OK.  So you haven't actually seen the book with the
>         unadulterated indoctrination.  I am not surprised.
>
>          
>
>         My proposal, well, maybe we could just keep going the way we
>         are.  We can sit back and whine, moan, criticize, point
>         fingers, accuse, call names, etc.  That seems to be working
>         really well for most people.
>
>          
>
>         Or maybe we could try to stop all of that and really establish
>         an educational system that might work better than the disaster
>         we have.  Maybe we should really look for a good answer
>         instead of slamming every effort that gets made simply because
>         it comes from someone with different political views.
>
>          
>
>         Liberals, traditionalists, progressives, conservatives,
>         fribbles, frabbles and bedolfers are all equally guilty.  And
>         as long as we continue to behave the way we are, we will
>         continue to fall farther and farther behind our world
>         counterparts.
>
>          
>
>         Our sitting back on our laurels and whining and pissing and
>         moaning and accusing gets us nowhere.  Actually, it's moving
>         us backwards.  Maybe it's time for some new attitudes and
>         actions.  While common core is definitely far from perfect, at
>         least somebody is willing to try something.
>
>          
>
>         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>         *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 7:35 AM
>         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>          
>
>         Since the books are not yet available in GA, I have only been
>         able to read excerpts provided by GA DoE. However, here is one
>         example I've read:
>
>         Problem:
>
>         32-12 = ?
>
>         Common Core Solution:
>
>         32 - _3_ = 29
>         32 - _4_ = 28
>         32 - _5_ = 27
>         32 - _8_ = 22
>                 20
>
>         You can rail all you want about addressing the issues rather
>         than politics but since politics are in control I'd like to
>         hear your proposal to address the issues.
>
>         On 5/19/2014 9:28 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>             I think it's an excellent comparison.  Our kids are poorly
>             educated.  Pure and simple.  The reasons you cite are
>             valid, and there are a myriad of others.  Education is the
>             one commodity in the U.S. for which we all strive to get
>             the least for our money.
>
>              
>
>             How many text books have you really looked at.  I mean
>             really read from cover to cover?  I have read all of the
>             ones our students use.  Every word; every page.  Please,
>             take one of the common core math books spec'd by
>             California and point me to a page with unadulterated
>             indoctrination.
>
>              
>
>             What classroom is this taking place in?  Cite the school,
>             the class, and the teacher.
>
>              
>
>             It's easy to point the finger in sweeping generalities, we
>             all do it.  But I am challenging you to cite specifics. 
>             Real occurrences.  Not "everybody knows" or " it's a known
>             fact".
>
>              
>
>             I am not sure of the significance of your population
>             question.  In reality, the European countries have a far
>             denser population, and they are just as diverse as we
>             are.  They have greens, oranges, blacks, pinks, whites,
>             purples, geniuses, slow kids, fast kids, middle speed
>             kids.  What's the point of your question?  And for an
>             answer, those kids come out of the educational systems
>             better educated than our kids.  And, as I wrote, there are
>             a myriad of reasons for that.  One of them is that they
>             remove all of the political in-fighting and finger
>             pointing and name calling, and they set rigid standards
>             for the kids, and demand extremely advanced exams like the
>             abitur for graduation and admission to universities.
>
>              
>
>             I don't' care if it's common core or what it is.  We, as a
>             nation, need to stop our bickering and start really
>             educating our kids.  AS long as we are indeed finger
>             pointing, name calling, politicizing, we'll have what we
>             have now, or worse.  And it sure as heck isn't working.
>
>              
>
>             So we can all sit around and whine about where text books
>             come from, and piss and moan that the parents (who are
>             often just as under educated) should be picking the
>             curriculum, or we can try to do something positive.  I
>             choose the latter.
>
>              
>
>             *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>             <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>             [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis
>             Putnam
>             *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 5:23 AM
>             *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>             *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>              
>
>             I'm not sure that is a valid comparison. Which European
>             country is as diverse as the US and is trying to educate
>             as many children? Which European country has equivalent
>             teacher union power that controls education for the
>             express purpose of benefiting it leadership through
>             increased membership (forced or other wise) by controlling
>             the federal government? You want to remove politics and
>             focus on the issues which is a laudable goal. How do you
>             do that when the education system is entirely controlled
>             by politics and the local school boards have virtually no
>             say in the curriculum?
>
>             Here is how things work. The content of text books are
>             controlled by 2 states simply because they are the largest
>             consumers, Texas and California. Texas has smartly
>             rejected Common Core while California has embraced it.
>             Georgia has regrettably accepted Common Core (hopefully
>             that will change in the next legislative session but we
>             are stuck with it for 1 year at least) therefore, it has
>             no choice but to buy the books accepted by CA and they are
>             unadulterated indoctrination Common Core crap. So even if
>             Common Core is rejected, GA taxpayers are stuck with the
>             CA crap or will have to spend millions to get new books
>             while the current ones are only 1 year old.
>
>             On 5/18/2014 3:03 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                 While I still tend to agree on the intrusion issue,
>                 Western European educational standards are indeed
>                 dictated at the fed level, and those countries are
>                 leaving us in the dust as far as scientific education
>                 is concerned.
>
>                  
>
>                 *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                 <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                 [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom
>                 Matiska
>                 *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:52 AM
>                 *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                 *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                  
>
>                 Bingo on the intrusion.  Dept of Education did not
>                 exist in my time nor did its predecessor HEW exist
>                 during my parents school years.  What to teach and how
>                 to teach it was discussed at local school board and
>                 PTA meetings, not dictated from above. Tom  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                 *From:*Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net
>                 <mailto:dap1 at bellsouth.net>>
>                 *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                 *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:25 AM
>                 *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                  
>
>                 As a professional tutor, I can tell you it is crap and
>                 my opinion has nothing to do with inertia. That being
>                 said, the real problem with it is more intrusion from
>                 the federal government. When the US led the world in
>                 education was when the local school districts had the
>                 most control. As an aside, I've also read the history
>                 requirements. It is pure unadulterated, progressive
>                 indoctrination by way of revised history.
>
>                 On 5/17/2014 3:55 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                 All of this, yes, and I think a far more comprehensive
>                 approach.
>
>                  
>
>                 The biggest problem is that it's a change, and people
>                 resist change.
>
>                  
>
>                 *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                 <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                 [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Paf
>                 Dvorak
>                 *Sent:* Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:42 AM
>                 *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                 *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                  
>
>                 I think what Americans don't 'get' is that this common
>                 core teaching/learning method isn't to be used to
>                 cypher EVERY math question one runs across, but rather
>                 attempts to teach the kids how to think...or another
>                 way to think.
>
>
>
>
>
>                 At 06:48 AM 5/17/2014 -0700, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                 Content-type: multipart/alternative;
>                         
>                 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0705_01CF719B.F2F00700"
>                 Content-language: en-us
>
>                 I am not so sure it's all bad.  No doubt, it is
>                 confusing, but only because the approach to
>                 teaching/learning is different.  Different does not
>                 automatically make it bad.
>                  
>                 Here in the U.S>, we teach the various areas of math
>                 discreetly:  algebra, geometry, trig, etc.  Most of
>                 western Europe doesn't do that.  They teach
>                 mathematical concepts the encompass all of those areas
>                 and slowly and steadily move to more and more
>                 difficult concepts.
>                  
>                 When our new exchange students arrive here in August,
>                 most of them juniors, they are leaps and bounds ahead
>                 of their American peers.  Most of them can move
>                 straight into AP Calculus, and still encounter little
>                 new material.
>                  
>                 Our two juniors, one from Germany and one from
>                 Denmark, just took the Common Core practice tests. 
>                 The American kids were all complaining they were the
>                 hardest tests they had ever taken.  Our students told
>                 us they were doing that math in the 7^th and 8^th grades.
>                  
>                 *From:* rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                 <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                 [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                 <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>] *On Behalf Of
>                 *Bernard L Willis
>                 *Sent:* Friday, May 16, 2014 9:31 PM
>                 *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                 *Cc:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                 *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>                  
>                 My State (IN.) is dropping it. 
>                  
>                 BW
>                  
>                 On Fri, 16 May 2014 23:13:48 -0400 "John A. Quayle"
>                 <blueoval57 at verizon.net
>                 <mailto:blueoval57 at verizon.net> > writes:
>
>                 Common core is becoming a "common nightmare" - even
>                 for college students. Take a look:
>
>                         
>                 http://eaglerising.com/6195/common-core-math-confuses-college-students/
>
>
>                  
>
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>                  
>
>
>
>                 Paf Dvorak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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