[Rushtalk] No Can Do!

Stephen A. Frye s.frye at verizon.net
Mon May 19 11:29:39 MDT 2014


I think that, first of all, we have to stop rejecting out of hand.  We need
to realize that what we have now isn't working.  We are lagging.  We need to
examine plans on their own merit, and we need to come up with more.  We need
to try to drop our biases for a few seconds and determine really why our
present system of education is failing.  We need to look at other places,
countries, continents where it's working, and maybe ask why, and what can we
do to meet or exceed what they're doing.

 

It's a start, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of doing the great nothing
that we are doing now.  We are masters at complaining and pointing fingers.
We ALL need to try to set aside our differences for a minute or two and look
to the good of our young people.  And we can't sit back and wait for the
other guy to do it first.

 

Plan #2:  We can just keep bitching and complaining and finger pointing and
fall farther and farther behind.  Oh right.  And, most importantly,  blame
it on the other guy.

 

Does anyone realize that this just isn't working?

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Dennis Putnam
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 10:00 AM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

We'll have to agree to disagree, particularly with respect to definitions.
So what is your proposal to fix the system?

On 5/19/2014 12:46 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

You are relying on excerpts to draw a broad-brush conclusion.  Not logical.
And my guess is - your mind was made up before you read a word.  The idea
sprang from a non-Conservative, so, by definition, it has to be rejected out
of hand.

 

And I don't the ideas behind common core are necessarily wrong.  I do think
they are not perfect.  I don't applaud what is wrong, but I certainly
applaud an honest effort to improve rather than just sitting back
criticizing and complaining. That's all we do.  We find fault with
everything and, as a result, do nothing, and that approach is failing our
kids and our country.

 

We're not really educating kids very well now.  You keep using the word
"indoctrination".  Do we really want to do anything different?  We just want
to indoctrinate them with our thinking as opposed to liberal thinking.  But
it's still indoctrination.

 

We have to get past this.  I want to see our kids learn math and science.
The tried approach of sitting back and doing nothing or just constantly
complaining -  simply doesn't work.  The system is failing.

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Dennis Putnam
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 9:24 AM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

That seems to be the implication. You seemed to be saying that my excerpts
from the GA DoE are not what is in the books you want me to review "cover to
cover." Either they are or they are not. If they are not then the DoE is
lying. If they are then your reply makes no sense.

I, on the other hand, cannot applaud the "let's do something, even if it is
wrong" philosophy. Especially when the "something" is being driven by
politics and the desire to indoctrinate rather then educate.

On 5/19/2014 12:02 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

I am not saying anyone is lying.  You constantly go off the deep end.  You
are so against anything that isn't the traditional way of doing things that
you seem to refuse to even consider anything else.  We're in the 21st
century.  Like it or not, things are not the same as they were 200 years
ago, and they never will be.  Adapt.

 

I have gone to countless common core meetings now at the high school.  I
have heard and seen the presentations.  I disagree with some of it, and I
agree with some of it.

 

What we have is not working.  Plain and simple.  Our European counterparts
(and Asian for that matter) are leaps and bounds ahead of us.  The U.S. is
pathetically far behind most of the civilized world in math and science and
continuing to slip even farther.

 

As I wrote:  Common Core is not perfect.  Far from it.  But rather than just
sitting back on our dead asses complaining - or maybe waiting for the
unrealizable perfect answer, at least someone is trying to do something to
better our students and to better our overall position in the world.  I
applaud the effort, flawed as it is.

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Dennis Putnam
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 8:17 AM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

OK, so you are saying GA DoE is lying about the contents. If that is the
case then I guess we are in bigger trouble than we thought.

Here's another absurd example that the DoE is lying about:

The student is shown a picture of 4 containers filled with various levels of
liquid. The containers are graduated up to 6L.

Traditional and Common Core solution to part one is the same, label the
volume of each container:

1: 5L
2: 3L
3: 6L
4: 1L

Part 2 asks, if container 1 is poured into container 3, what is the volume
in container 3 after the pour?

Traditional math solution:

It can't be done
or
6L plus 5L on the floor

Common Core solution:

11L

Again you complain about pissing and moaning but have not explained your
plan on how to improve a political driven education system without politics.

So your philosophy is to try something, even if it is wrong? We know what
works from the results of the 50's and 60's. Why the strong resistance to
returning to what we know worked? Answer: because politics has infested the
education system to the point where the objective is not education.

On 5/19/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

OK.  So you haven't actually seen the book with the unadulterated
indoctrination.  I am not surprised.

 

My proposal, well, maybe we could just keep going the way we are.  We can
sit back and whine, moan, criticize, point fingers, accuse, call names, etc.
That seems to be working really well for most people.

 

Or maybe we could try to stop all of that and really establish an
educational system that might work better than the disaster we have.  Maybe
we should really look for a good answer instead of slamming every effort
that gets made simply because it comes from someone with different political
views.

 

Liberals, traditionalists, progressives, conservatives, fribbles, frabbles
and bedolfers are all equally guilty.  And as long as we continue to behave
the way we are, we will continue to fall farther and farther behind our
world counterparts.

 

Our sitting back on our laurels and whining and pissing and moaning and
accusing gets us nowhere.  Actually, it's moving us backwards.  Maybe it's
time for some new attitudes and actions.  While common core is definitely
far from perfect, at least somebody is willing to try something.

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Dennis Putnam
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 7:35 AM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

Since the books are not yet available in GA, I have only been able to read
excerpts provided by GA DoE. However, here is one example I've read:

Problem:

32-12 = ?

Common Core Solution:

32 - 3 = 29
32 - 4 = 28
32 - 5 = 27
32 - 8 = 22
        20

You can rail all you want about addressing the issues rather than politics
but since politics are in control I'd like to hear your proposal to address
the issues.

On 5/19/2014 9:28 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

I think it's an excellent comparison.  Our kids are poorly educated.  Pure
and simple.  The reasons you cite are valid, and there are a myriad of
others.  Education is the one commodity in the U.S. for which we all strive
to get the least for our money.

 

How many text books have you really looked at.  I mean really read from
cover to cover?  I have read all of the ones our students use.  Every word;
every page.  Please, take one of the common core math books spec'd by
California and point me to a page with unadulterated indoctrination.

 

What classroom is this taking place in?  Cite the school, the class, and the
teacher.

 

It's easy to point the finger in sweeping generalities, we all do it.  But I
am challenging you to cite specifics.  Real occurrences.  Not "everybody
knows" or " it's a known fact".

 

I am not sure of the significance of your population question.  In reality,
the European countries have a far denser population, and they are just as
diverse as we are.  They have greens, oranges, blacks, pinks, whites,
purples, geniuses, slow kids, fast kids, middle speed kids.  What's the
point of your question?  And for an answer, those kids come out of the
educational systems better educated than our kids.  And, as I wrote, there
are a myriad of reasons for that.  One of them is that they remove all of
the political in-fighting and finger pointing and name calling, and they set
rigid standards for the kids, and demand extremely advanced exams like the
abitur for graduation and admission to universities.

 

I don't' care if it's common core or what it is.  We, as a nation, need to
stop our bickering and start really educating our kids.  AS long as we are
indeed finger pointing, name calling, politicizing, we'll have what we have
now, or worse.  And it sure as heck isn't working.

 

So we can all sit around and whine about where text books come from, and
piss and moan that the parents (who are often just as under educated) should
be picking the curriculum, or we can try to do something positive.  I choose
the latter.

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Dennis Putnam
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 5:23 AM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

I'm not sure that is a valid comparison. Which European country is as
diverse as the US and is trying to educate as many children? Which European
country has equivalent teacher union power that controls education for the
express purpose of benefiting it leadership through increased membership
(forced or other wise) by controlling the federal government? You want to
remove politics and focus on the issues which is a laudable goal. How do you
do that when the education system is entirely controlled by politics and the
local school boards have virtually no say in the curriculum?

Here is how things work. The content of text books are controlled by 2
states simply because they are the largest consumers, Texas and California.
Texas has smartly rejected Common Core while California has embraced it.
Georgia has regrettably accepted Common Core (hopefully that will change in
the next legislative session but we are stuck with it for 1 year at least)
therefore, it has no choice but to buy the books accepted by CA and they are
unadulterated indoctrination Common Core crap. So even if Common Core is
rejected, GA taxpayers are stuck with the CA crap or will have to spend
millions to get new books while the current ones are only 1 year old.

On 5/18/2014 3:03 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

While I still tend to agree on the intrusion issue, Western European
educational standards are indeed dictated at the fed level, and those
countries are leaving us in the dust as far as scientific education is
concerned.

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Tom Matiska
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:52 AM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

Bingo on the intrusion.  Dept of Education did not exist in my time nor did
its predecessor HEW exist during my parents school years.  What to teach and
how to teach it was discussed at local school board and PTA meetings, not
dictated from above. Tom   

 

 

  _____  

From: Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net>
To: rushtalk at csdco.com 
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

As a professional tutor, I can tell you it is crap and my opinion has
nothing to do with inertia. That being said, the real problem with it is
more intrusion from the federal government. When the US led the world in
education was when the local school districts had the most control. As an
aside, I've also read the history requirements. It is pure unadulterated,
progressive indoctrination by way of revised history.

On 5/17/2014 3:55 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

All of this, yes, and I think a far more comprehensive approach.

 

The biggest problem is that it's a change, and people resist change.

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Paf Dvorak
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:42 AM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

I think what Americans don't 'get' is that this common core
teaching/learning method isn't to be used to cypher EVERY math question one
runs across, but rather attempts to teach the kids how to think...or another
way to think.





At 06:48 AM 5/17/2014 -0700, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

Content-type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0705_01CF719B.F2F00700"
Content-language: en-us

I am not so sure it's all bad.  No doubt, it is confusing, but only because
the approach to teaching/learning is different.  Different does not
automatically make it bad.
 
Here in the U.S>, we teach the various areas of math discreetly:  algebra,
geometry, trig, etc.  Most of western Europe doesn't do that.  They teach
mathematical concepts the encompass all of those areas and slowly and
steadily move to more and more difficult concepts.
 
When our new exchange students arrive here in August, most of them juniors,
they are leaps and bounds ahead of their American peers.  Most of them can
move straight into AP Calculus, and still encounter little new material.
 
Our two juniors, one from Germany and one from Denmark, just took the Common
Core practice tests.  The American kids were all complaining they were the
hardest tests they had ever taken.  Our students told us they were doing
that math in the 7th and 8th grades.
 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [ mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
<mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> ] On Behalf Of Bernard L Willis
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 9:31 PM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Cc: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
My State (IN.) is dropping it.  
 
BW
 
On Fri, 16 May 2014 23:13:48 -0400 "John A. Quayle" <blueoval57 at verizon.net
> writes:

Common core is becoming a "common nightmare" - even for college students.
Take a look:

 
http://eaglerising.com/6195/common-core-math-confuses-college-students/ 

 

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