[Rushtalk] No Can Do!

Dennis Putnam dap1 at bellsouth.net
Mon May 19 11:43:26 MDT 2014


"We" are not rejecting anything out of hand. I am rejecting something
resulting from preliminary data and analysis. Could my mind be changed?
Possibly if what I've seen are errors rather than actual attempts to
"educate." You seem to like to jump to conclusions and assume anything
new is rejected simply because it is new and comes from the left
(although the latter is certainly enough to make one suspicious based on
history not histrionics). Some of us actually reject things because they
are just plain wrong, new, old or indifferent.

You have told us what not to do but you still avoid offering a solution.
So how does not complaining solve the problem? In my experience the more
we complain, especially to those elected, the more likely it is to make
progress. You seem to be leaning toward Carl's "do not vote" to make
things better theory.

On 5/19/2014 1:29 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
> I think that, first of all, we have to stop rejecting out of hand.  We
> need to realize that what we have now isn't working.  We are lagging. 
> We need to examine plans on their own merit, and we need to come up
> with more.  We need to try to drop our biases for a few seconds and
> determine really why our present system of education is failing.  We
> need to look at other places, countries, continents where it's
> working, and maybe ask why, and what can we do to meet or exceed what
> they're doing.
>
>  
>
> It's a start, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of doing the great
> nothing that we are doing now.  We are masters at complaining and
> pointing fingers.  We ALL need to try to set aside our differences for
> a minute or two and look to the good of our young people.  And we
> can't sit back and wait for the other guy to do it first.
>
>  
>
> Plan #2:  We can just keep bitching and complaining and finger
> pointing and fall farther and farther behind.  Oh right.  And, most
> importantly,  blame it on the other guy.
>
>  
>
> Does anyone realize that this just isn't working?
>
>  
>
> *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
> *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 10:00 AM
> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>  
>
> We'll have to agree to disagree, particularly with respect to
> definitions. So what is your proposal to fix the system?
>
> On 5/19/2014 12:46 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>     You are relying on excerpts to draw a broad-brush conclusion.  Not
>     logical.  And my guess is -- your mind was made up before you read
>     a word.  The idea sprang from a non-Conservative, so, by
>     definition, it has to be rejected out of hand.
>
>      
>
>     And I don't the ideas behind common core are necessarily wrong.  I
>     do think they are not perfect.  I don't applaud what is wrong, but
>     I certainly applaud an honest effort to improve rather than just
>     sitting back criticizing and complaining. That's all we do.  We
>     find fault with everything and, as a result, do nothing, and that
>     approach is failing our kids and our country.
>
>      
>
>     We're not really educating kids very well now.  You keep using the
>     word "indoctrination".  Do we really want to do anything
>     different?  We just want to indoctrinate them with our thinking as
>     opposed to liberal thinking.  But it's still indoctrination.
>
>      
>
>     We have to get past this.  I want to see our kids learn math and
>     science.  The tried approach of sitting back and doing nothing or
>     just constantly complaining -  simply doesn't work.  The system is
>     failing.
>
>      
>
>     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>     *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 9:24 AM
>     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>      
>
>     That seems to be the implication. You seemed to be saying that my
>     excerpts from the GA DoE are not what is in the books you want me
>     to review "cover to cover." Either they are or they are not. If
>     they are not then the DoE is lying. If they are then your reply
>     makes no sense.
>
>     I, on the other hand, cannot applaud the "let's do something, even
>     if it is wrong" philosophy. Especially when the "something" is
>     being driven by politics and the desire to indoctrinate rather
>     then educate.
>
>     On 5/19/2014 12:02 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>         I am not saying anyone is lying.  You constantly go off the
>         deep end.  You are so against anything that isn't the
>         traditional way of doing things that you seem to refuse to
>         even consider anything else.  We're in the 21^st century. 
>         Like it or not, things are not the same as they were 200 years
>         ago, and they never will be.  Adapt.
>
>          
>
>         I have gone to countless common core meetings now at the high
>         school.  I have heard and seen the presentations.  I disagree
>         with some of it, and I agree with some of it.
>
>          
>
>         What we have is not working.  Plain and simple.  Our European
>         counterparts (and Asian for that matter) are leaps and bounds
>         ahead of us.  The U.S. is pathetically far behind most of the
>         civilized world in math and science and continuing to slip
>         even farther.
>
>          
>
>         As I wrote:  Common Core is not perfect.  Far from it.  But
>         rather than just sitting back on our dead asses complaining --
>         or maybe waiting for the unrealizable perfect answer, at least
>         someone is trying to do something to better our students and
>         to better our overall position in the world.  I applaud the
>         effort, flawed as it is.
>
>          
>
>         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>         *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 8:17 AM
>         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>          
>
>         OK, so you are saying GA DoE is lying about the contents. If
>         that is the case then I guess we are in bigger trouble than we
>         thought.
>
>         Here's another absurd example that the DoE is lying about:
>
>         The student is shown a picture of 4 containers filled with
>         various levels of liquid. The containers are graduated up to 6L.
>
>         Traditional and Common Core solution to part one is the same,
>         label the volume of each container:
>
>         1: 5L
>         2: 3L
>         3: 6L
>         4: 1L
>
>         Part 2 asks, if container 1 is poured into container 3, what
>         is the volume in container 3 after the pour?
>
>         Traditional math solution:
>
>         It can't be done
>         or
>         6L plus 5L on the floor
>
>         Common Core solution:
>
>         11L
>
>         Again you complain about pissing and moaning but have not
>         explained your plan on how to improve a political driven
>         education system without politics.
>
>         So your philosophy is to try something, even if it is wrong?
>         We know what works from the results of the 50's and 60's. Why
>         the strong resistance to returning to what we know worked?
>         Answer: because politics has infested the education system to
>         the point where the objective is not education.
>
>         On 5/19/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>             OK.  So you haven't actually seen the book with the
>             unadulterated indoctrination.  I am not surprised.
>
>              
>
>             My proposal, well, maybe we could just keep going the way
>             we are.  We can sit back and whine, moan, criticize, point
>             fingers, accuse, call names, etc.  That seems to be
>             working really well for most people.
>
>              
>
>             Or maybe we could try to stop all of that and really
>             establish an educational system that might work better
>             than the disaster we have.  Maybe we should really look
>             for a good answer instead of slamming every effort that
>             gets made simply because it comes from someone with
>             different political views.
>
>              
>
>             Liberals, traditionalists, progressives, conservatives,
>             fribbles, frabbles and bedolfers are all equally guilty. 
>             And as long as we continue to behave the way we are, we
>             will continue to fall farther and farther behind our world
>             counterparts.
>
>              
>
>             Our sitting back on our laurels and whining and pissing
>             and moaning and accusing gets us nowhere.  Actually, it's
>             moving us backwards.  Maybe it's time for some new
>             attitudes and actions.  While common core is definitely
>             far from perfect, at least somebody is willing to try
>             something.
>
>              
>
>             *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>             <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>             [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis
>             Putnam
>             *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 7:35 AM
>             *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>             *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>              
>
>             Since the books are not yet available in GA, I have only
>             been able to read excerpts provided by GA DoE. However,
>             here is one example I've read:
>
>             Problem:
>
>             32-12 = ?
>
>             Common Core Solution:
>
>             32 - _3_ = 29
>             32 - _4_ = 28
>             32 - _5_ = 27
>             32 - _8_ = 22
>                     20
>
>             You can rail all you want about addressing the issues
>             rather than politics but since politics are in control I'd
>             like to hear your proposal to address the issues.
>
>             On 5/19/2014 9:28 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                 I think it's an excellent comparison.  Our kids are
>                 poorly educated.  Pure and simple.  The reasons you
>                 cite are valid, and there are a myriad of others. 
>                 Education is the one commodity in the U.S. for which
>                 we all strive to get the least for our money.
>
>                  
>
>                 How many text books have you really looked at.  I mean
>                 really read from cover to cover?  I have read all of
>                 the ones our students use.  Every word; every page. 
>                 Please, take one of the common core math books spec'd
>                 by California and point me to a page with
>                 unadulterated indoctrination.
>
>                  
>
>                 What classroom is this taking place in?  Cite the
>                 school, the class, and the teacher.
>
>                  
>
>                 It's easy to point the finger in sweeping
>                 generalities, we all do it.  But I am challenging you
>                 to cite specifics.  Real occurrences.  Not "everybody
>                 knows" or " it's a known fact".
>
>                  
>
>                 I am not sure of the significance of your population
>                 question.  In reality, the European countries have a
>                 far denser population, and they are just as diverse as
>                 we are.  They have greens, oranges, blacks, pinks,
>                 whites, purples, geniuses, slow kids, fast kids,
>                 middle speed kids.  What's the point of your
>                 question?  And for an answer, those kids come out of
>                 the educational systems better educated than our
>                 kids.  And, as I wrote, there are a myriad of reasons
>                 for that.  One of them is that they remove all of the
>                 political in-fighting and finger pointing and name
>                 calling, and they set rigid standards for the kids,
>                 and demand extremely advanced exams like the abitur
>                 for graduation and admission to universities.
>
>                  
>
>                 I don't' care if it's common core or what it is.  We,
>                 as a nation, need to stop our bickering and start
>                 really educating our kids.  AS long as we are indeed
>                 finger pointing, name calling, politicizing, we'll
>                 have what we have now, or worse.  And it sure as heck
>                 isn't working.
>
>                  
>
>                 So we can all sit around and whine about where text
>                 books come from, and piss and moan that the parents
>                 (who are often just as under educated) should be
>                 picking the curriculum, or we can try to do something
>                 positive.  I choose the latter.
>
>                  
>
>                 *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                 <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                 [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of
>                 *Dennis Putnam
>                 *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 5:23 AM
>                 *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                 *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                  
>
>                 I'm not sure that is a valid comparison. Which
>                 European country is as diverse as the US and is trying
>                 to educate as many children? Which European country
>                 has equivalent teacher union power that controls
>                 education for the express purpose of benefiting it
>                 leadership through increased membership (forced or
>                 other wise) by controlling the federal government? You
>                 want to remove politics and focus on the issues which
>                 is a laudable goal. How do you do that when the
>                 education system is entirely controlled by politics
>                 and the local school boards have virtually no say in
>                 the curriculum?
>
>                 Here is how things work. The content of text books are
>                 controlled by 2 states simply because they are the
>                 largest consumers, Texas and California. Texas has
>                 smartly rejected Common Core while California has
>                 embraced it. Georgia has regrettably accepted Common
>                 Core (hopefully that will change in the next
>                 legislative session but we are stuck with it for 1
>                 year at least) therefore, it has no choice but to buy
>                 the books accepted by CA and they are unadulterated
>                 indoctrination Common Core crap. So even if Common
>                 Core is rejected, GA taxpayers are stuck with the CA
>                 crap or will have to spend millions to get new books
>                 while the current ones are only 1 year old.
>
>                 On 5/18/2014 3:03 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                     While I still tend to agree on the intrusion
>                     issue, Western European educational standards are
>                     indeed dictated at the fed level, and those
>                     countries are leaving us in the dust as far as
>                     scientific education is concerned.
>
>                      
>
>                     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of
>                     *Tom Matiska
>                     *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:52 AM
>                     *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                      
>
>                     Bingo on the intrusion.  Dept of Education did not
>                     exist in my time nor did its predecessor HEW exist
>                     during my parents school years.  What to teach and
>                     how to teach it was discussed at local school
>                     board and PTA meetings, not dictated from above.
>                     Tom  
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                     *From:*Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net
>                     <mailto:dap1 at bellsouth.net>>
>                     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                     *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:25 AM
>                     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                      
>
>                     As a professional tutor, I can tell you it is crap
>                     and my opinion has nothing to do with inertia.
>                     That being said, the real problem with it is more
>                     intrusion from the federal government. When the US
>                     led the world in education was when the local
>                     school districts had the most control. As an
>                     aside, I've also read the history requirements. It
>                     is pure unadulterated, progressive indoctrination
>                     by way of revised history.
>
>                     On 5/17/2014 3:55 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                     All of this, yes, and I think a far more
>                     comprehensive approach.
>
>                      
>
>                     The biggest problem is that it's a change, and
>                     people resist change.
>
>                      
>
>                     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of
>                     *Paf Dvorak
>                     *Sent:* Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:42 AM
>                     *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                      
>
>                     I think what Americans don't 'get' is that this
>                     common core teaching/learning method isn't to be
>                     used to cypher EVERY math question one runs
>                     across, but rather attempts to teach the kids how
>                     to think...or another way to think.
>
>
>
>
>
>                     At 06:48 AM 5/17/2014 -0700, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                     Content-type: multipart/alternative;
>                             
>                     boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0705_01CF719B.F2F00700"
>                     Content-language: en-us
>
>                     I am not so sure it's all bad.  No doubt, it is
>                     confusing, but only because the approach to
>                     teaching/learning is different.  Different does
>                     not automatically make it bad.
>                      
>                     Here in the U.S>, we teach the various areas of
>                     math discreetly:  algebra, geometry, trig, etc. 
>                     Most of western Europe doesn't do that.  They
>                     teach mathematical concepts the encompass all of
>                     those areas and slowly and steadily move to more
>                     and more difficult concepts.
>                      
>                     When our new exchange students arrive here in
>                     August, most of them juniors, they are leaps and
>                     bounds ahead of their American peers.  Most of
>                     them can move straight into AP Calculus, and still
>                     encounter little new material.
>                      
>                     Our two juniors, one from Germany and one from
>                     Denmark, just took the Common Core practice
>                     tests.  The American kids were all complaining
>                     they were the hardest tests they had ever taken. 
>                     Our students told us they were doing that math in
>                     the 7^th and 8^th grades.
>                      
>                     *From:* rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>] *On Behalf Of
>                     *Bernard L Willis
>                     *Sent:* Friday, May 16, 2014 9:31 PM
>                     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                     *Cc:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>                      
>                     My State (IN.) is dropping it. 
>                      
>                     BW
>                      
>                     On Fri, 16 May 2014 23:13:48 -0400 "John A.
>                     Quayle" <blueoval57 at verizon.net
>                     <mailto:blueoval57 at verizon.net> > writes:
>
>                     Common core is becoming a "common nightmare" -
>                     even for college students. Take a look:
>
>                             
>                     http://eaglerising.com/6195/common-core-math-confuses-college-students/
>
>
>                      
>
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>                      
>
>
>
>                     Paf Dvorak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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