[Rushtalk] No Can Do!

Dennis Putnam dap1 at bellsouth.net
Mon May 19 12:17:48 MDT 2014


Colonscopy coming up? You have my sympathy. I didn't find it that bad
tasting when I added the lemon flavoring but drinking so much of it over
such a short time was the challenge. Not to mention the job it is
designed to do.

On 5/19/2014 1:53 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
> Anybody know what's in Gavilyte?  Couldn't they make it taste better?
>
>  
>
> *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
> *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 10:43 AM
> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>  
>
> "We" are not rejecting anything out of hand. I am rejecting something
> resulting from preliminary data and analysis. Could my mind be
> changed? Possibly if what I've seen are errors rather than actual
> attempts to "educate." You seem to like to jump to conclusions and
> assume anything new is rejected simply because it is new and comes
> from the left (although the latter is certainly enough to make one
> suspicious based on history not histrionics). Some of us actually
> reject things because they are just plain wrong, new, old or indifferent.
>
> You have told us what not to do but you still avoid offering a
> solution. So how does not complaining solve the problem? In my
> experience the more we complain, especially to those elected, the more
> likely it is to make progress. You seem to be leaning toward Carl's
> "do not vote" to make things better theory.
>
> On 5/19/2014 1:29 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>     I think that, first of all, we have to stop rejecting out of
>     hand.  We need to realize that what we have now isn't working.  We
>     are lagging.  We need to examine plans on their own merit, and we
>     need to come up with more.  We need to try to drop our biases for
>     a few seconds and determine really why our present system of
>     education is failing.  We need to look at other places, countries,
>     continents where it's working, and maybe ask why, and what can we
>     do to meet or exceed what they're doing.
>
>      
>
>     It's a start, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of doing the great
>     nothing that we are doing now.  We are masters at complaining and
>     pointing fingers.  We ALL need to try to set aside our differences
>     for a minute or two and look to the good of our young people.  And
>     we can't sit back and wait for the other guy to do it first.
>
>      
>
>     Plan #2:  We can just keep bitching and complaining and finger
>     pointing and fall farther and farther behind.  Oh right.  And,
>     most importantly,  blame it on the other guy.
>
>      
>
>     Does anyone realize that this just isn't working?
>
>      
>
>     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>     *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 10:00 AM
>     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>      
>
>     We'll have to agree to disagree, particularly with respect to
>     definitions. So what is your proposal to fix the system?
>
>     On 5/19/2014 12:46 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>         You are relying on excerpts to draw a broad-brush conclusion. 
>         Not logical.  And my guess is -- your mind was made up before
>         you read a word.  The idea sprang from a non-Conservative, so,
>         by definition, it has to be rejected out of hand.
>
>          
>
>         And I don't the ideas behind common core are necessarily
>         wrong.  I do think they are not perfect.  I don't applaud what
>         is wrong, but I certainly applaud an honest effort to improve
>         rather than just sitting back criticizing and complaining.
>         That's all we do.  We find fault with everything and, as a
>         result, do nothing, and that approach is failing our kids and
>         our country.
>
>          
>
>         We're not really educating kids very well now.  You keep using
>         the word "indoctrination".  Do we really want to do anything
>         different?  We just want to indoctrinate them with our
>         thinking as opposed to liberal thinking.  But it's still
>         indoctrination.
>
>          
>
>         We have to get past this.  I want to see our kids learn math
>         and science.  The tried approach of sitting back and doing
>         nothing or just constantly complaining -  simply doesn't
>         work.  The system is failing.
>
>          
>
>         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>         *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 9:24 AM
>         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>          
>
>         That seems to be the implication. You seemed to be saying that
>         my excerpts from the GA DoE are not what is in the books you
>         want me to review "cover to cover." Either they are or they
>         are not. If they are not then the DoE is lying. If they are
>         then your reply makes no sense.
>
>         I, on the other hand, cannot applaud the "let's do something,
>         even if it is wrong" philosophy. Especially when the
>         "something" is being driven by politics and the desire to
>         indoctrinate rather then educate.
>
>         On 5/19/2014 12:02 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>             I am not saying anyone is lying.  You constantly go off
>             the deep end.  You are so against anything that isn't the
>             traditional way of doing things that you seem to refuse to
>             even consider anything else.  We're in the 21^st century. 
>             Like it or not, things are not the same as they were 200
>             years ago, and they never will be.  Adapt.
>
>              
>
>             I have gone to countless common core meetings now at the
>             high school.  I have heard and seen the presentations.  I
>             disagree with some of it, and I agree with some of it.
>
>              
>
>             What we have is not working.  Plain and simple.  Our
>             European counterparts (and Asian for that matter) are
>             leaps and bounds ahead of us.  The U.S. is pathetically
>             far behind most of the civilized world in math and science
>             and continuing to slip even farther.
>
>              
>
>             As I wrote:  Common Core is not perfect.  Far from it. 
>             But rather than just sitting back on our dead asses
>             complaining -- or maybe waiting for the unrealizable
>             perfect answer, at least someone is trying to do something
>             to better our students and to better our overall position
>             in the world.  I applaud the effort, flawed as it is.
>
>              
>
>             *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>             <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>             [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis
>             Putnam
>             *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 8:17 AM
>             *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>             *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>              
>
>             OK, so you are saying GA DoE is lying about the contents.
>             If that is the case then I guess we are in bigger trouble
>             than we thought.
>
>             Here's another absurd example that the DoE is lying about:
>
>             The student is shown a picture of 4 containers filled with
>             various levels of liquid. The containers are graduated up
>             to 6L.
>
>             Traditional and Common Core solution to part one is the
>             same, label the volume of each container:
>
>             1: 5L
>             2: 3L
>             3: 6L
>             4: 1L
>
>             Part 2 asks, if container 1 is poured into container 3,
>             what is the volume in container 3 after the pour?
>
>             Traditional math solution:
>
>             It can't be done
>             or
>             6L plus 5L on the floor
>
>             Common Core solution:
>
>             11L
>
>             Again you complain about pissing and moaning but have not
>             explained your plan on how to improve a political driven
>             education system without politics.
>
>             So your philosophy is to try something, even if it is
>             wrong? We know what works from the results of the 50's and
>             60's. Why the strong resistance to returning to what we
>             know worked? Answer: because politics has infested the
>             education system to the point where the objective is not
>             education.
>
>             On 5/19/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                 OK.  So you haven't actually seen the book with the
>                 unadulterated indoctrination.  I am not surprised.
>
>                  
>
>                 My proposal, well, maybe we could just keep going the
>                 way we are.  We can sit back and whine, moan,
>                 criticize, point fingers, accuse, call names, etc. 
>                 That seems to be working really well for most people.
>
>                  
>
>                 Or maybe we could try to stop all of that and really
>                 establish an educational system that might work better
>                 than the disaster we have.  Maybe we should really
>                 look for a good answer instead of slamming every
>                 effort that gets made simply because it comes from
>                 someone with different political views.
>
>                  
>
>                 Liberals, traditionalists, progressives,
>                 conservatives, fribbles, frabbles and bedolfers are
>                 all equally guilty.  And as long as we continue to
>                 behave the way we are, we will continue to fall
>                 farther and farther behind our world counterparts.
>
>                  
>
>                 Our sitting back on our laurels and whining and
>                 pissing and moaning and accusing gets us nowhere. 
>                 Actually, it's moving us backwards.  Maybe it's time
>                 for some new attitudes and actions.  While common core
>                 is definitely far from perfect, at least somebody is
>                 willing to try something.
>
>                  
>
>                 *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                 <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                 [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of
>                 *Dennis Putnam
>                 *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 7:35 AM
>                 *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                 *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                  
>
>                 Since the books are not yet available in GA, I have
>                 only been able to read excerpts provided by GA DoE.
>                 However, here is one example I've read:
>
>                 Problem:
>
>                 32-12 = ?
>
>                 Common Core Solution:
>
>                 32 - _3_ = 29
>                 32 - _4_ = 28
>                 32 - _5_ = 27
>                 32 - _8_ = 22
>                         20
>
>                 You can rail all you want about addressing the issues
>                 rather than politics but since politics are in control
>                 I'd like to hear your proposal to address the issues.
>
>                 On 5/19/2014 9:28 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                     I think it's an excellent comparison.  Our kids
>                     are poorly educated.  Pure and simple.  The
>                     reasons you cite are valid, and there are a myriad
>                     of others.  Education is the one commodity in the
>                     U.S. for which we all strive to get the least for
>                     our money.
>
>                      
>
>                     How many text books have you really looked at.  I
>                     mean really read from cover to cover?  I have read
>                     all of the ones our students use.  Every word;
>                     every page.  Please, take one of the common core
>                     math books spec'd by California and point me to a
>                     page with unadulterated indoctrination.
>
>                      
>
>                     What classroom is this taking place in?  Cite the
>                     school, the class, and the teacher.
>
>                      
>
>                     It's easy to point the finger in sweeping
>                     generalities, we all do it.  But I am challenging
>                     you to cite specifics.  Real occurrences.  Not
>                     "everybody knows" or " it's a known fact".
>
>                      
>
>                     I am not sure of the significance of your
>                     population question.  In reality, the European
>                     countries have a far denser population, and they
>                     are just as diverse as we are.  They have greens,
>                     oranges, blacks, pinks, whites, purples, geniuses,
>                     slow kids, fast kids, middle speed kids.  What's
>                     the point of your question?  And for an answer,
>                     those kids come out of the educational systems
>                     better educated than our kids.  And, as I wrote,
>                     there are a myriad of reasons for that.  One of
>                     them is that they remove all of the political
>                     in-fighting and finger pointing and name calling,
>                     and they set rigid standards for the kids, and
>                     demand extremely advanced exams like the abitur
>                     for graduation and admission to universities.
>
>                      
>
>                     I don't' care if it's common core or what it is. 
>                     We, as a nation, need to stop our bickering and
>                     start really educating our kids.  AS long as we
>                     are indeed finger pointing, name calling,
>                     politicizing, we'll have what we have now, or
>                     worse.  And it sure as heck isn't working.
>
>                      
>
>                     So we can all sit around and whine about where
>                     text books come from, and piss and moan that the
>                     parents (who are often just as under educated)
>                     should be picking the curriculum, or we can try to
>                     do something positive.  I choose the latter.
>
>                      
>
>                     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of
>                     *Dennis Putnam
>                     *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 5:23 AM
>                     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                      
>
>                     I'm not sure that is a valid comparison. Which
>                     European country is as diverse as the US and is
>                     trying to educate as many children? Which European
>                     country has equivalent teacher union power that
>                     controls education for the express purpose of
>                     benefiting it leadership through increased
>                     membership (forced or other wise) by controlling
>                     the federal government? You want to remove
>                     politics and focus on the issues which is a
>                     laudable goal. How do you do that when the
>                     education system is entirely controlled by
>                     politics and the local school boards have
>                     virtually no say in the curriculum?
>
>                     Here is how things work. The content of text books
>                     are controlled by 2 states simply because they are
>                     the largest consumers, Texas and California. Texas
>                     has smartly rejected Common Core while California
>                     has embraced it. Georgia has regrettably accepted
>                     Common Core (hopefully that will change in the
>                     next legislative session but we are stuck with it
>                     for 1 year at least) therefore, it has no choice
>                     but to buy the books accepted by CA and they are
>                     unadulterated indoctrination Common Core crap. So
>                     even if Common Core is rejected, GA taxpayers are
>                     stuck with the CA crap or will have to spend
>                     millions to get new books while the current ones
>                     are only 1 year old.
>
>                     On 5/18/2014 3:03 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                         While I still tend to agree on the intrusion
>                         issue, Western European educational standards
>                         are indeed dictated at the fed level, and
>                         those countries are leaving us in the dust as
>                         far as scientific education is concerned.
>
>                          
>
>                         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf
>                         Of *Tom Matiska
>                         *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:52 AM
>                         *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                          
>
>                         Bingo on the intrusion.  Dept of Education did
>                         not exist in my time nor did its predecessor
>                         HEW exist during my parents school years. 
>                         What to teach and how to teach it was
>                         discussed at local school board and PTA
>                         meetings, not dictated from above. Tom  
>
>                          
>
>                          
>
>                         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                         *From:*Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net
>                         <mailto:dap1 at bellsouth.net>>
>                         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:25 AM
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                          
>
>                         As a professional tutor, I can tell you it is
>                         crap and my opinion has nothing to do with
>                         inertia. That being said, the real problem
>                         with it is more intrusion from the federal
>                         government. When the US led the world in
>                         education was when the local school districts
>                         had the most control. As an aside, I've also
>                         read the history requirements. It is pure
>                         unadulterated, progressive indoctrination by
>                         way of revised history.
>
>                         On 5/17/2014 3:55 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                         All of this, yes, and I think a far more
>                         comprehensive approach.
>
>                          
>
>                         The biggest problem is that it's a change, and
>                         people resist change.
>
>                          
>
>                         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf
>                         Of *Paf Dvorak
>                         *Sent:* Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:42 AM
>                         *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                          
>
>                         I think what Americans don't 'get' is that
>                         this common core teaching/learning method
>                         isn't to be used to cypher EVERY math question
>                         one runs across, but rather attempts to teach
>                         the kids how to think...or another way to think.
>
>
>
>
>
>                         At 06:48 AM 5/17/2014 -0700, Stephen A. Frye
>                         wrote:
>
>                         Content-type: multipart/alternative;
>                                 
>                         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0705_01CF719B.F2F00700"
>                         Content-language: en-us
>
>                         I am not so sure it's all bad.  No doubt, it
>                         is confusing, but only because the approach to
>                         teaching/learning is different.  Different
>                         does not automatically make it bad.
>                          
>                         Here in the U.S>, we teach the various areas
>                         of math discreetly:  algebra, geometry, trig,
>                         etc.  Most of western Europe doesn't do that. 
>                         They teach mathematical concepts the encompass
>                         all of those areas and slowly and steadily
>                         move to more and more difficult concepts.
>                          
>                         When our new exchange students arrive here in
>                         August, most of them juniors, they are leaps
>                         and bounds ahead of their American peers. 
>                         Most of them can move straight into AP
>                         Calculus, and still encounter little new material.
>                          
>                         Our two juniors, one from Germany and one from
>                         Denmark, just took the Common Core practice
>                         tests.  The American kids were all complaining
>                         they were the hardest tests they had ever
>                         taken.  Our students told us they were doing
>                         that math in the 7^th and 8^th grades.
>                          
>                         *From:* rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>] *On
>                         Behalf Of *Bernard L Willis
>                         *Sent:* Friday, May 16, 2014 9:31 PM
>                         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         *Cc:* rushtalk at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>                          
>                         My State (IN.) is dropping it. 
>                          
>                         BW
>                          
>                         On Fri, 16 May 2014 23:13:48 -0400 "John A.
>                         Quayle" <blueoval57 at verizon.net
>                         <mailto:blueoval57 at verizon.net> > writes:
>
>                         Common core is becoming a "common nightmare" -
>                         even for college students. Take a look:
>
>                                 
>                         http://eaglerising.com/6195/common-core-math-confuses-college-students/
>
>
>                          
>
>                         _______________________________________________
>                         Rushtalk mailing list
>                         Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>                          
>
>
>
>                         Paf Dvorak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                         _______________________________________________
>
>                         Rushtalk mailing list
>
>                         Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>
>                         http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>                          
>
>                          
>
>                         _______________________________________________
>                         Rushtalk mailing list
>                         Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>                          
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                         _______________________________________________
>
>                         Rushtalk mailing list
>
>                         Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>
>                         http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>                      
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>
>                     Rushtalk mailing list
>
>                     Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>
>                     http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>                  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>
>                 Rushtalk mailing list
>
>                 Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>
>                 http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>              
>
>
>
>
>
>
>             _______________________________________________
>
>             Rushtalk mailing list
>
>             Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>
>             http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>          
>
>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         Rushtalk mailing list
>
>         Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>
>         http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>      
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Rushtalk mailing list
>
>     Rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:Rushtalk at csdco.com>
>
>     http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rushtalk mailing list
> Rushtalk at csdco.com
> http://kalos.csdco.com/mailman/listinfo/rushtalk

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://kalos.csdco.com/pipermail/rushtalk/attachments/20140519/eef63fcf/attachment-0001.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 261 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://kalos.csdco.com/pipermail/rushtalk/attachments/20140519/eef63fcf/attachment-0001.bin 


More information about the Rushtalk mailing list