[Rushtalk] No Can Do!

Dennis Putnam dap1 at bellsouth.net
Mon May 19 13:40:48 MDT 2014


I don't care about other countries. They are all worse off then we are,
economically so they are not the model to adapt. Since what we have
doesn't work and what we abandoned at about the same time as the NEA
grew in power did, we need to go back to what works. After more than 50
years of trying to make it better with the opposite results the path is
clear, at least to a pragmatist like me.

On 5/19/2014 3:24 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
> So I think we agree on all of those points.  Anything I have
> accomplished at the school is a micro-step.
>
>  
>
> We decry the involvement of the fed in our schools.  I tend to agree. 
> At the same time, the fed overseeing the schools in most other
> countries is working.  How do we resolve that?
>
>  
>
> *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
> *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 11:44 AM
> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>  
>
> On 5/19/2014 2:14 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>     I did offer a solution.  We need to start working together. 
>     Working hard.
>
>      
>
>     You write "? In my experience the more we complain, especially to
>     those elected, the more likely it is to make progress." 
>
>      
>
>     How's that complaining been working out for you the past 10 or so
>     years?
>
> Modest at best locally and less at state level. Forget federal level
> as we are a minority and while those I complain to try, they are
> overridden by the majority. But, I do not subscribe to your and Carl's
> do nothing philosophy.
>
>  
>
> And then there's proactivity.  Are you regularly attending school
> board and school meetings where these issues are discussed?  Quite
> openly and frankly I find.
>
> Depends on how you define regularly. My school board's hands are tied
> by the feds. They either have to follow the feds or lose funding. Most
> of the board does not like it but they cannot survive without the
> federal money. That needs to stop but eliminating the US Dept. of Ed.
>
>  
>
> There are 3300 students in our high school.  Our kids graduated (too
> damned long ago to admit, thank you), but I go for our exchange
> students.  This has given me a lot of cumulative years of high school
> experience.  3300 students in the school; less than 50 parents show
> up.  If I were to hazard a guess, it would be that the complainers
> tend to populate the group of 3250.  Those willing to show interest
> and to act are in the former 50.
>
>  
>
> How many of these meetings have you personally attended?  How many
> full school board meetings?
>
> I try to go at least a couple of times per semester. Why does that
> matter? Nothing gets done as I said above.
>
>  
>
> Back to school night is the same thing.  3300 kids, 50-100 parents. 
> We get a chance to meet the teachers, look at the syllabi, get a
> concrete idea of what is being taught and how.  I exchange email and
> talk to our students' teachers all year long.  I ask for progress
> reports.  I discuss how math concepts and other things are presented. 
> I question history lessons.
>
>  
>
> Most parents aren't interested (ratio 50/3250.  Draw your own
> conclusion).  The reasons are boundless.  Oh, I was too busy.  The
> game was on.  Not my problem.
>
> Here the board meetings are virtually empty.
>
>  
>
> And questions like "why do you give my kid so much homework?  He can't
> do all that and play football (water polo, track, basketball -- you
> fill it in).
>
>  
>
> If a significant number of these parents -- and any other seriously
> interested citizens -- took an active interest in any of these school
> opportunities, things just might change.  Case in point:  several of
> us talked and got the English teacher to change how he weighed
> different activities for the final grade.  We made a difference.
>
>  
>
> Anything wrong with our education system we have let happen -- mostly
> through gross inaction and disinterest.  We, as parents and citizens,
> aren't doing the job.  So government is stepping in.  Sadly,
> government taking the reins in education seems to be working quite
> well in other countries.
>
>  
>
> Better complain louder to those elected officials.  I'm sure they're
> listening.
>
> Some are but being in the minority is a bitch.
>
> *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
> [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
> *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 10:43 AM
> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>  
>
> "We" are not rejecting anything out of hand. I am rejecting something
> resulting from preliminary data and analysis. Could my mind be
> changed? Possibly if what I've seen are errors rather than actual
> attempts to "educate." You seem to like to jump to conclusions and
> assume anything new is rejected simply because it is new and comes
> from the left (although the latter is certainly enough to make one
> suspicious based on history not histrionics). Some of us actually
> reject things because they are just plain wrong, new, old or indifferent.
>
> You have told us what not to do but you still avoid offering a
> solution. So how does not complaining solve the problem? In my
> experience the more we complain, especially to those elected, the more
> likely it is to make progress. You seem to be leaning toward Carl's
> "do not vote" to make things better theory.
>
> On 5/19/2014 1:29 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>     I think that, first of all, we have to stop rejecting out of
>     hand.  We need to realize that what we have now isn't working.  We
>     are lagging.  We need to examine plans on their own merit, and we
>     need to come up with more.  We need to try to drop our biases for
>     a few seconds and determine really why our present system of
>     education is failing.  We need to look at other places, countries,
>     continents where it's working, and maybe ask why, and what can we
>     do to meet or exceed what they're doing.
>
>      
>
>     It's a start, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of doing the great
>     nothing that we are doing now.  We are masters at complaining and
>     pointing fingers.  We ALL need to try to set aside our differences
>     for a minute or two and look to the good of our young people.  And
>     we can't sit back and wait for the other guy to do it first.
>
>      
>
>     Plan #2:  We can just keep bitching and complaining and finger
>     pointing and fall farther and farther behind.  Oh right.  And,
>     most importantly,  blame it on the other guy.
>
>      
>
>     Does anyone realize that this just isn't working?
>
>      
>
>     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>     *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 10:00 AM
>     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>      
>
>     We'll have to agree to disagree, particularly with respect to
>     definitions. So what is your proposal to fix the system?
>
>     On 5/19/2014 12:46 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>         You are relying on excerpts to draw a broad-brush conclusion. 
>         Not logical.  And my guess is -- your mind was made up before
>         you read a word.  The idea sprang from a non-Conservative, so,
>         by definition, it has to be rejected out of hand.
>
>          
>
>         And I don't the ideas behind common core are necessarily
>         wrong.  I do think they are not perfect.  I don't applaud what
>         is wrong, but I certainly applaud an honest effort to improve
>         rather than just sitting back criticizing and complaining.
>         That's all we do.  We find fault with everything and, as a
>         result, do nothing, and that approach is failing our kids and
>         our country.
>
>          
>
>         We're not really educating kids very well now.  You keep using
>         the word "indoctrination".  Do we really want to do anything
>         different?  We just want to indoctrinate them with our
>         thinking as opposed to liberal thinking.  But it's still
>         indoctrination.
>
>          
>
>         We have to get past this.  I want to see our kids learn math
>         and science.  The tried approach of sitting back and doing
>         nothing or just constantly complaining -  simply doesn't
>         work.  The system is failing.
>
>          
>
>         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Putnam
>         *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 9:24 AM
>         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>          
>
>         That seems to be the implication. You seemed to be saying that
>         my excerpts from the GA DoE are not what is in the books you
>         want me to review "cover to cover." Either they are or they
>         are not. If they are not then the DoE is lying. If they are
>         then your reply makes no sense.
>
>         I, on the other hand, cannot applaud the "let's do something,
>         even if it is wrong" philosophy. Especially when the
>         "something" is being driven by politics and the desire to
>         indoctrinate rather then educate.
>
>         On 5/19/2014 12:02 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>             I am not saying anyone is lying.  You constantly go off
>             the deep end.  You are so against anything that isn't the
>             traditional way of doing things that you seem to refuse to
>             even consider anything else.  We're in the 21^st century. 
>             Like it or not, things are not the same as they were 200
>             years ago, and they never will be.  Adapt.
>
>              
>
>             I have gone to countless common core meetings now at the
>             high school.  I have heard and seen the presentations.  I
>             disagree with some of it, and I agree with some of it.
>
>              
>
>             What we have is not working.  Plain and simple.  Our
>             European counterparts (and Asian for that matter) are
>             leaps and bounds ahead of us.  The U.S. is pathetically
>             far behind most of the civilized world in math and science
>             and continuing to slip even farther.
>
>              
>
>             As I wrote:  Common Core is not perfect.  Far from it. 
>             But rather than just sitting back on our dead asses
>             complaining -- or maybe waiting for the unrealizable
>             perfect answer, at least someone is trying to do something
>             to better our students and to better our overall position
>             in the world.  I applaud the effort, flawed as it is.
>
>              
>
>             *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>             <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>             [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis
>             Putnam
>             *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 8:17 AM
>             *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>             *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>              
>
>             OK, so you are saying GA DoE is lying about the contents.
>             If that is the case then I guess we are in bigger trouble
>             than we thought.
>
>             Here's another absurd example that the DoE is lying about:
>
>             The student is shown a picture of 4 containers filled with
>             various levels of liquid. The containers are graduated up
>             to 6L.
>
>             Traditional and Common Core solution to part one is the
>             same, label the volume of each container:
>
>             1: 5L
>             2: 3L
>             3: 6L
>             4: 1L
>
>             Part 2 asks, if container 1 is poured into container 3,
>             what is the volume in container 3 after the pour?
>
>             Traditional math solution:
>
>             It can't be done
>             or
>             6L plus 5L on the floor
>
>             Common Core solution:
>
>             11L
>
>             Again you complain about pissing and moaning but have not
>             explained your plan on how to improve a political driven
>             education system without politics.
>
>             So your philosophy is to try something, even if it is
>             wrong? We know what works from the results of the 50's and
>             60's. Why the strong resistance to returning to what we
>             know worked? Answer: because politics has infested the
>             education system to the point where the objective is not
>             education.
>
>             On 5/19/2014 11:01 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                 OK.  So you haven't actually seen the book with the
>                 unadulterated indoctrination.  I am not surprised.
>
>                  
>
>                 My proposal, well, maybe we could just keep going the
>                 way we are.  We can sit back and whine, moan,
>                 criticize, point fingers, accuse, call names, etc. 
>                 That seems to be working really well for most people.
>
>                  
>
>                 Or maybe we could try to stop all of that and really
>                 establish an educational system that might work better
>                 than the disaster we have.  Maybe we should really
>                 look for a good answer instead of slamming every
>                 effort that gets made simply because it comes from
>                 someone with different political views.
>
>                  
>
>                 Liberals, traditionalists, progressives,
>                 conservatives, fribbles, frabbles and bedolfers are
>                 all equally guilty.  And as long as we continue to
>                 behave the way we are, we will continue to fall
>                 farther and farther behind our world counterparts.
>
>                  
>
>                 Our sitting back on our laurels and whining and
>                 pissing and moaning and accusing gets us nowhere. 
>                 Actually, it's moving us backwards.  Maybe it's time
>                 for some new attitudes and actions.  While common core
>                 is definitely far from perfect, at least somebody is
>                 willing to try something.
>
>                  
>
>                 *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                 <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                 [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of
>                 *Dennis Putnam
>                 *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 7:35 AM
>                 *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                 *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                  
>
>                 Since the books are not yet available in GA, I have
>                 only been able to read excerpts provided by GA DoE.
>                 However, here is one example I've read:
>
>                 Problem:
>
>                 32-12 = ?
>
>                 Common Core Solution:
>
>                 32 - _3_ = 29
>                 32 - _4_ = 28
>                 32 - _5_ = 27
>                 32 - _8_ = 22
>                         20
>
>                 You can rail all you want about addressing the issues
>                 rather than politics but since politics are in control
>                 I'd like to hear your proposal to address the issues.
>
>                 On 5/19/2014 9:28 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                     I think it's an excellent comparison.  Our kids
>                     are poorly educated.  Pure and simple.  The
>                     reasons you cite are valid, and there are a myriad
>                     of others.  Education is the one commodity in the
>                     U.S. for which we all strive to get the least for
>                     our money.
>
>                      
>
>                     How many text books have you really looked at.  I
>                     mean really read from cover to cover?  I have read
>                     all of the ones our students use.  Every word;
>                     every page.  Please, take one of the common core
>                     math books spec'd by California and point me to a
>                     page with unadulterated indoctrination.
>
>                      
>
>                     What classroom is this taking place in?  Cite the
>                     school, the class, and the teacher.
>
>                      
>
>                     It's easy to point the finger in sweeping
>                     generalities, we all do it.  But I am challenging
>                     you to cite specifics.  Real occurrences.  Not
>                     "everybody knows" or " it's a known fact".
>
>                      
>
>                     I am not sure of the significance of your
>                     population question.  In reality, the European
>                     countries have a far denser population, and they
>                     are just as diverse as we are.  They have greens,
>                     oranges, blacks, pinks, whites, purples, geniuses,
>                     slow kids, fast kids, middle speed kids.  What's
>                     the point of your question?  And for an answer,
>                     those kids come out of the educational systems
>                     better educated than our kids.  And, as I wrote,
>                     there are a myriad of reasons for that.  One of
>                     them is that they remove all of the political
>                     in-fighting and finger pointing and name calling,
>                     and they set rigid standards for the kids, and
>                     demand extremely advanced exams like the abitur
>                     for graduation and admission to universities.
>
>                      
>
>                     I don't' care if it's common core or what it is. 
>                     We, as a nation, need to stop our bickering and
>                     start really educating our kids.  AS long as we
>                     are indeed finger pointing, name calling,
>                     politicizing, we'll have what we have now, or
>                     worse.  And it sure as heck isn't working.
>
>                      
>
>                     So we can all sit around and whine about where
>                     text books come from, and piss and moan that the
>                     parents (who are often just as under educated)
>                     should be picking the curriculum, or we can try to
>                     do something positive.  I choose the latter.
>
>                      
>
>                     *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                     <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                     [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf Of
>                     *Dennis Putnam
>                     *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 5:23 AM
>                     *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                     *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                      
>
>                     I'm not sure that is a valid comparison. Which
>                     European country is as diverse as the US and is
>                     trying to educate as many children? Which European
>                     country has equivalent teacher union power that
>                     controls education for the express purpose of
>                     benefiting it leadership through increased
>                     membership (forced or other wise) by controlling
>                     the federal government? You want to remove
>                     politics and focus on the issues which is a
>                     laudable goal. How do you do that when the
>                     education system is entirely controlled by
>                     politics and the local school boards have
>                     virtually no say in the curriculum?
>
>                     Here is how things work. The content of text books
>                     are controlled by 2 states simply because they are
>                     the largest consumers, Texas and California. Texas
>                     has smartly rejected Common Core while California
>                     has embraced it. Georgia has regrettably accepted
>                     Common Core (hopefully that will change in the
>                     next legislative session but we are stuck with it
>                     for 1 year at least) therefore, it has no choice
>                     but to buy the books accepted by CA and they are
>                     unadulterated indoctrination Common Core crap. So
>                     even if Common Core is rejected, GA taxpayers are
>                     stuck with the CA crap or will have to spend
>                     millions to get new books while the current ones
>                     are only 1 year old.
>
>                     On 5/18/2014 3:03 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                         While I still tend to agree on the intrusion
>                         issue, Western European educational standards
>                         are indeed dictated at the fed level, and
>                         those countries are leaving us in the dust as
>                         far as scientific education is concerned.
>
>                          
>
>                         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf
>                         Of *Tom Matiska
>                         *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:52 AM
>                         *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                          
>
>                         Bingo on the intrusion.  Dept of Education did
>                         not exist in my time nor did its predecessor
>                         HEW exist during my parents school years. 
>                         What to teach and how to teach it was
>                         discussed at local school board and PTA
>                         meetings, not dictated from above. Tom  
>
>                          
>
>                          
>
>                         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                         *From:*Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net
>                         <mailto:dap1 at bellsouth.net>>
>                         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         *Sent:* Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:25 AM
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                          
>
>                         As a professional tutor, I can tell you it is
>                         crap and my opinion has nothing to do with
>                         inertia. That being said, the real problem
>                         with it is more intrusion from the federal
>                         government. When the US led the world in
>                         education was when the local school districts
>                         had the most control. As an aside, I've also
>                         read the history requirements. It is pure
>                         unadulterated, progressive indoctrination by
>                         way of revised history.
>
>                         On 5/17/2014 3:55 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
>
>                         All of this, yes, and I think a far more
>                         comprehensive approach.
>
>                          
>
>                         The biggest problem is that it's a change, and
>                         people resist change.
>
>                          
>
>                         *From:*rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] *On Behalf
>                         Of *Paf Dvorak
>                         *Sent:* Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:42 AM
>                         *To:* Rushtalk Discussion List
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>
>                          
>
>                         I think what Americans don't 'get' is that
>                         this common core teaching/learning method
>                         isn't to be used to cypher EVERY math question
>                         one runs across, but rather attempts to teach
>                         the kids how to think...or another way to think.
>
>
>
>
>
>                         At 06:48 AM 5/17/2014 -0700, Stephen A. Frye
>                         wrote:
>
>                         Content-type: multipart/alternative;
>                                 
>                         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0705_01CF719B.F2F00700"
>                         Content-language: en-us
>
>                         I am not so sure it's all bad.  No doubt, it
>                         is confusing, but only because the approach to
>                         teaching/learning is different.  Different
>                         does not automatically make it bad.
>                          
>                         Here in the U.S>, we teach the various areas
>                         of math discreetly:  algebra, geometry, trig,
>                         etc.  Most of western Europe doesn't do that. 
>                         They teach mathematical concepts the encompass
>                         all of those areas and slowly and steadily
>                         move to more and more difficult concepts.
>                          
>                         When our new exchange students arrive here in
>                         August, most of them juniors, they are leaps
>                         and bounds ahead of their American peers. 
>                         Most of them can move straight into AP
>                         Calculus, and still encounter little new material.
>                          
>                         Our two juniors, one from Germany and one from
>                         Denmark, just took the Common Core practice
>                         tests.  The American kids were all complaining
>                         they were the hardest tests they had ever
>                         taken.  Our students told us they were doing
>                         that math in the 7^th and 8^th grades.
>                          
>                         *From:* rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
>                         [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>] *On
>                         Behalf Of *Bernard L Willis
>                         *Sent:* Friday, May 16, 2014 9:31 PM
>                         *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         *Cc:* rushtalk at csdco.com
>                         <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
>                          
>                         My State (IN.) is dropping it. 
>                          
>                         BW
>                          
>                         On Fri, 16 May 2014 23:13:48 -0400 "John A.
>                         Quayle" <blueoval57 at verizon.net
>                         <mailto:blueoval57 at verizon.net> > writes:
>
>                         Common core is becoming a "common nightmare" -
>                         even for college students. Take a look:
>
>                                 
>                         http://eaglerising.com/6195/common-core-math-confuses-college-students/
>
>
>                          
>
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>                          
>
>
>
>                         Paf Dvorak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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