[Rushtalk] No Can Do!

Stephen A. Frye s.frye at verizon.net
Tue May 27 17:18:34 MDT 2014


Ahh, so we don't need to be educated in math.  I didn't realize that.  So
then, why do we send our kids to school in the first place, pray tell?

 

I am absolutely shocked any engineer would say that.  We use it all of the
time!

 

Why do we need grammar?  Word will correct grammar and spelling.  And if we
don't need grammar, why study English at all?

 

And why should we learn how to read?  Almost all books are available as
audio books.

 

And we wonder why we are falling behind.  It ain't the fault of the libs,
John.  It's the fault of the thinking you cited.

 

 

 

From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of John A. Quayle
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 4:48 PM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List; 'Rushtalk Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!

 

At 04:42 PM 5/26/2014, Stephen A. Frye wrote:



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The truth, the truth, . ad infinitum
 
My point was, is, and will continue to be that our primary and secondary
education in math stinks to high heaven.  European peers smoke our kids when
it comes to performance in math and science.
 
You can preach til the cows come home about the PTA and the parents
selecting/setting the math curriculum, but it's the blind leading the blind.
Most parents  couldn't solve 2^.5 - and you want them to set curriculum? 


         And what, pray-tell, is the practical application for this function
have illustrated here?!? When I was in graduate school, I couldn't possibly
solve calculus and that's what kept me from an MBA. I was working for
General Electric at the time. So, I asked the comptroller and some
engineers. Each one looked at my calc book and snorted, "we don't use that
stuff anymore! That's why there are computers!" 




 And I bet less than 5% of parents could solve f(x) = x^2, solve for
f^-1(x).
 
I don't consider learning to do these concepts "indoctrination".
Personally, I think that's just a convenient word we throw around so that we
can sit back on our duffs, criticize what someone else is doing, and do
nothing ourselves.
 
I don't particularly care whether it comes from Common Core, the trash can,
or the local VFW post.  But our education system needs to change -
radically, and now.  Cuz what we have ain't workin'.  Now we can just
continue to sit back and point our finger at everybody else and blame them,
or we can choose to try to make a real difference.  Like I wrote to Dennis,
I choose the latter.  I have had way too many of these European kids in my
home clearly showing me the striking difference to let me sit back any
longer.
 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [ mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com
<mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> ] On Behalf Of John A. Quayle
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:59 PM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List; 'Rushtalk Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
At 09:31 AM 5/23/2014, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

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I couldn't agree more.  Reality lies in the middle somewhere.  You make my
point exactly.

         No, Stephen. I believe we have a breakdown in communication,
somewhere here. What I find as "neither suitable nor acceptable" is the
indoctrination known as "Common Core." Now, I find it as detestable and
unacceptable as the United Nation's "Baccalaureate" program for high
schoolers.

         The truth about this purposeful mess is available all over the
place, if you choose to do some homework. Let's look at a few spots:

A)
http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/05/06/outrageous-common-core-question-was-the-
holocaust-a-hoax/ 
B)
http://www.glennbeck.com/2013/08/23/david-barton-offers-the-truth-about-comm
on-core/ 
C)
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/05/17/follow-the-money-self-described-liber
al-educator-tells-ugly-truth-about-common-core-119681 
D)
http://thetruthwins.com/archives/you-wont-believe-the-method-that-common-cor
e-is-using-to-teach-our-kids-subtraction 
E)
http://blog.heartland.org/2014/05/thorner-chilling-truth-behind-common-core-
state-standards/ 

        Now then.........these five sites are merely the tip of the iceberg
and I could sit here all night, posting more site, stories and hideousness
about this ludicrous new means of educating our children. Dennis is 100%
correct. Common core is a horrendous idea and the damage it will cause is
something American really should do without.

- jaq






 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [  <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com>
mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On Behalf Of John A. Quayle
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 8:42 PM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List; 'Rushtalk Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
At 07:51 AM 5/20/2014, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

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Perfect example of the all or nothing scenario.  It's either perfect, or
it's in a panic.  This fits neither of these.

         Neither is it suitable, nor acceptable!


 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [ mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of John A. Quayle
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 7:24 PM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List; 'Rushtalk Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
At 09:33 PM 5/19/2014, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

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If we wait for perfect, nothing will ever happen. And I truly doubt the
country will be less safe if we happen to find a better way to teach math.

         Sorry, but both of your contentions are totally erroneous! Doing
ANYTHING in a panic leads to misery. The country's safety has NOTHING to do
with math - who knows it, what methods, who's teaching it......whatever. Who
controls the levers and switches of power and the economy are of paramount
importance to our safety! Math?!? Meh................


 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [ mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of John A. Quayle
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 2:09 PM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List; 'Rushtalk Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
At 11:01 AM 5/19/2014, Stephen A. Frye wrote:

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OK.  So you haven't actually seen the book with the unadulterated
indoctrination.  I am not surprised.
 
My proposal, well, maybe we could just keep going the way we are.  We can
sit back and whine, moan, criticize, point fingers, accuse, call names, etc.
That seems to be working really well for most people.
 
Or maybe we could try to stop all of that and really establish an
educational system that might work better than the disaster we have.  Maybe
we should really look for a good answer instead of slamming every effort
that gets made simply because it comes from someone with different political
views.
 
Liberals, traditionalists, progressives, conservatives, fribbles, frabbles
and bedolfers are all equally guilty.  And as long as we continue to behave
the way we are, we will continue to fall farther and farther behind our
world counterparts.
 
Our sitting back on our laurels and whining and pissing and moaning and
accusing gets us nowhere.  Actually, it's moving us backwards.  Maybe it's
time for some new attitudes and actions.  While common core is definitely
far from perfect, at least somebody is willing to try something.

         Stephen, "trying something" is what we get when citizens howl for
"safety" from the government and the end result is a loss of our rights
under the guise of "doing something." 

         I'd druther somebody PERFECT a lesson plan FIRST before trying to
foist gibberish on young skulls full of mush. You may differ and that's your
right. 


John Q.


 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [ mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Dennis Putnam
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 7:35 AM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
Since the books are not yet available in GA, I have only been able to read
excerpts provided by GA DoE. However, here is one example I've read:

Problem:

32-12 = ?

Common Core Solution:

32 - 3 = 29
32 - 4 = 28
32 - 5 = 27
32 - 8 = 22
        20

You can rail all you want about addressing the issues rather than politics
but since politics are in control I'd like to hear your proposal to address
the issues.

On 5/19/2014 9:28 AM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
I think it's an excellent comparison.  Our kids are poorly educated.  Pure
and simple.  The reasons you cite are valid, and there are a myriad of
others.  Education is the one commodity in the U.S. for which we all strive
to get the least for our money.
 
How many text books have you really looked at.  I mean really read from
cover to cover?  I have read all of the ones our students use.  Every word;
every page.  Please, take one of the common core math books spec'd by
California and point me to a page with unadulterated indoctrination.
 
What classroom is this taking place in?  Cite the school, the class, and the
teacher.
 
It's easy to point the finger in sweeping generalities, we all do it.  But I
am challenging you to cite specifics.  Real occurrences.  Not "everybody
knows" or " it's a known fact".
 
I am not sure of the significance of your population question.  In reality,
the European countries have a far denser population, and they are just as
diverse as we are.  They have greens, oranges, blacks, pinks, whites,
purples, geniuses, slow kids, fast kids, middle speed kids.  What's the
point of your question?  And for an answer, those kids come out of the
educational systems better educated than our kids.  And, as I wrote, there
are a myriad of reasons for that.  One of them is that they remove all of
the political in-fighting and finger pointing and name calling, and they set
rigid standards for the kids, and demand extremely advanced exams like the
abitur for graduation and admission to universities.
 
I don't' care if it's common core or what it is.  We, as a nation, need to
stop our bickering and start really educating our kids.  AS long as we are
indeed finger pointing, name calling, politicizing, we'll have what we have
now, or worse.  And it sure as heck isn't working.
 
So we can all sit around and whine about where text books come from, and
piss and moan that the parents (who are often just as under educated) should
be picking the curriculum, or we can try to do something positive.  I choose
the latter.
 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Dennis Putnam
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 5:23 AM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
I'm not sure that is a valid comparison. Which European country is as
diverse as the US and is trying to educate as many children? Which European
country has equivalent teacher union power that controls education for the
express purpose of benefiting it leadership through increased membership
(forced or other wise) by controlling the federal government? You want to
remove politics and focus on the issues which is a laudable goal. How do you
do that when the education system is entirely controlled by politics and the
local school boards have virtually no say in the curriculum?
Here is how things work. The content of text books are controlled by 2
states simply because they are the largest consumers, Texas and California.
Texas has smartly rejected Common Core while California has embraced it.
Georgia has regrettably accepted Common Core (hopefully that will change in
the next legislative session but we are stuck with it for 1 year at least)
therefore, it has no choice but to buy the books accepted by CA and they are
unadulterated indoctrination Common Core crap. So even if Common Core is
rejected, GA taxpayers are stuck with the CA crap or will have to spend
millions to get new books while the current ones are only 1 year old.
On 5/18/2014 3:03 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
While I still tend to agree on the intrusion issue, Western European
educational standards are indeed dictated at the fed level, and those
countries are leaving us in the dust as far as scientific education is
concerned.
 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Tom Matiska
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:52 AM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
Bingo on the intrusion.  Dept of Education did not exist in my time nor did
its predecessor HEW exist during my parents school years.  What to teach and
how to teach it was discussed at local school board and PTA meetings, not
dictated from above. Tom   
 
 

 

From: Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net>
To: rushtalk at csdco.com 
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
As a professional tutor, I can tell you it is crap and my opinion has
nothing to do with inertia. That being said, the real problem with it is
more intrusion from the federal government. When the US led the world in
education was when the local school districts had the most control. As an
aside, I've also read the history requirements. It is pure unadulterated,
progressive indoctrination by way of revised history.
On 5/17/2014 3:55 PM, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
All of this, yes, and I think a far more comprehensive approach.
 
The biggest problem is that it's a change, and people resist change.
 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Paf Dvorak
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:42 AM
To: Rushtalk Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
I think what Americans don't 'get' is that this common core
teaching/learning method isn't to be used to cypher EVERY math question one
runs across, but rather attempts to teach the kids how to think...or another
way to think.




At 06:48 AM 5/17/2014 -0700, Stephen A. Frye wrote:
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I am not so sure it's all bad.  No doubt, it is confusing, but only because
the approach to teaching/learning is different.  Different does not
automatically make it bad.
 
Here in the U.S>, we teach the various areas of math discreetly:  algebra,
geometry, trig, etc.  Most of western Europe doesn't do that.  They teach
mathematical concepts the encompass all of those areas and slowly and
steadily move to more and more difficult concepts.
 
When our new exchange students arrive here in August, most of them juniors,
they are leaps and bounds ahead of their American peers.  Most of them can
move straight into AP Calculus, and still encounter little new material.
 
Our two juniors, one from Germany and one from Denmark, just took the Common
Core practice tests.  The American kids were all complaining they were the
hardest tests they had ever taken.  Our students told us they were doing
that math in the 7th and 8th grades.
 
From: rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com [ mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com] On
Behalf Of Bernard L Willis
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 9:31 PM
To: rushtalk at csdco.com
Cc: rushtalk at csdco.com
Subject: Re: [Rushtalk] No Can Do!
 
My State (IN.) is dropping it.  
 
BW
 
On Fri, 16 May 2014 23:13:48 -0400 "John A. Quayle" <blueoval57 at verizon.net
> writes:
Common core is becoming a "common nightmare" - even for college students.
Take a look:
 
http://eaglerising.com/6195/common-core-math-confuses-college-students/ 
 
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