[Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They are eviroromentally a disaster)

Dennis Putnam dap1 at bellsouth.net
Mon Mar 14 15:56:58 MDT 2022


I have no problem with electric vehicles. Forcing them on us before they 
become practical (price and infrastructure) is my issue. Nor do I have a 
problem trying to clean up the earth but there has to be a cost/benefit 
analysis component. China and India are the world's largest polluters 
and are exempt from any "world regulations." The US has reduced its 
pollution output more than any other industrialized country. Humankind 
has always figured out solutions to problems and I doubt this will be 
the exception. However, the human race becoming extinct in the next 12, 
10 or 8 years, whatever the current leftist hysteria is, has been 
predicted since the 70's and we are still here and getting better.

On 3/14/2022 5:47 PM, Stephen Frye wrote:
> I can’t because …
>
> There are indeed serious issues examine and solve before making the 
> knee-jerk jump to electric.  What I don’t understand is digging in our 
> heels and sticking our fingers in our ears.  This is going to happen. 
>  As fast as Biden’s green team wants it?  No.  But to me this exactly 
> fits into the oft heard paradigm “if the solution isn’t 100%. The we 
> shouldn’t do anything.”  This planet will run out of oil.  When?  I 
> doubt anybody knows.  I doubt anybody really wants to know.  It’s like 
> knowing when we are going to die.  I agree that having electric forced 
> on us causes immediate and harsh push back.  Especially when it comes 
> to oil.  Oil is viewed by many as life blood.  I remember when I was 
> really young I asked my dad if we would run out of gas.  His answer: 
> not in our lifetime.  Such a typical response.  We preach against the 
> growing debt being kicked down the road, but we live and breathe 
> kicking oil down the road - “ain’t my problem.”  Again, I am not 
> suggesting some quantum leap into electric.  That will backfire.  But 
> I can’t condone “I don’t wanna “ either.  I agree; right now there 
> seems to be plenty.  But we will run out.   Why in the world would we 
> sit back and ignore that reality when we have the opportunity to 
> aggressively prepare?  At the end of the day, like so much else, our 
> politics too often drive our thinking.
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Rushtalk <rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> on behalf of Dennis 
> Putnam via Rushtalk <rushtalk at csdco.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 14, 2022 2:23:28 PM
> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <rushtalk at csdco.com>
> *Cc:* Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They 
> are eviroromentally a disaster)
> The big one being that the electrical grid cannot handle the required 
> load.
>
> On 3/14/2022 5:18 PM, Stephen Frye via Rushtalk wrote:
>> John, if I didn’t know better, I’d say you are against electric cars. 
>>  E=MC2 won’t tell us much - don’t forget the denominator.  F=MA is a 
>> little better, but either way the claim is correct: same amount of 
>> energy.  But there are losses all along the way, and he itemizes one 
>> approach, but ignores the analogous itemization on the other. 
>>  Textbook example of pre-existing bias.  He also overlooks and 
>> misstates a lot of quite pertinent information.
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS 
>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fo0ukef&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd26a39e9dae0477361b708da0600e6c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637828898205531456%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=yvF%2FxYlFn3pfZpNqLlVj6e44WkaWDj5lu2u1CK6gdn4%3D&reserved=0>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Rushtalk <rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> 
>> <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> on behalf of John A. Quayle via 
>> Rushtalk <rushtalk at csdco.com> <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 13, 2022 12:47:36 PM
>> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com> 
>> <rushtalk at csdco.com> <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>> *Cc:* John A. Quayle <quaylejohn at aol.com> <mailto:quaylejohn at aol.com>
>> *Subject:* [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They are 
>> eviroromentally a disaster)
>>>>
>>>> 	
>>>>
>>>> 	
>>>>
>>>> 	Batteries, they do not make electricity – they store electricity 
>>>> produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered 
>>>> plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a 
>>>> zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. 
>>>> is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs 
>>>> on the road are coal-powered, do you see?"
>>>>
>>>> Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of 
>>>> energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a 
>>>> mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what 
>>>> produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the 
>>>> battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in 
>>>> a car.
>>>>
>>>> There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. 
>>>> The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and 
>>>> lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, 
>>>> silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. 
>>>> Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.(empahsis: MINE!- JAQ)
>>>>
>>>> Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, 
>>>> usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The 
>>>> United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, 
>>>> and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is 
>>>> the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you 
>>>> throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens 
>>>> to them.
>>>>
>>>> All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in 
>>>> use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a 
>>>> flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery 
>>>> runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it 
>>>> as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of 
>>>> electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds 
>>>> inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The 
>>>> metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined 
>>>> flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak 
>>>> from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; 
>>>> it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
>>>>
>>>> In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones 
>>>> used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about 
>>>> those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do 
>>>> not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.
>>>>
>>>> But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric 
>>>> cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at 
>>>> batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three 
>>>> technologies share what we call environmentally destructive 
>>>> production costs.
>>>>
>>>> A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of 
>>>> a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty 
>>>> pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 
>>>> pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. 
>>>> Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.
>>>>
>>>> It should concern you that all those toxic components come from 
>>>> mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must 
>>>> process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of 
>>>> ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 
>>>> pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of 
>>>> the earth's crust for just - one - battery."
>>>>
>>>> Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a 
>>>> battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution 
>>>> controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic 
>>>> material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the 
>>>> cost of driving an electric car?"
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building 
>>>> the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they 
>>>> intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this 
>>>> is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not. This construction 
>>>> project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
>>>>
>>>> The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to 
>>>> process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure 
>>>> enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, 
>>>> sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and 
>>>> acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, 
>>>> copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which 
>>>> also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and 
>>>> the panels cannot be recycled.
>>>>
>>>> Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental 
>>>> destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) 
>>>> and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of 
>>>> iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths 
>>>> neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 
>>>> pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be 
>>>> replaced. We cannot recycle used blades.
>>>>
>>>> There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look 
>>>> beyond the myth of zero emissions.
>>>>
>>>> *"Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal but when you look 
>>>> at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, 
>>>> you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's 
>>>> environment than meets the eye, for sure.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Mail 
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>>>> for Windows
>>>>
>>
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