[Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They are eviroromentally a disaster)

Dennis Putnam dap1 at bellsouth.net
Tue Mar 15 11:27:33 MDT 2022

That is from me. It appears that John sent a blank reply to my email. 
Something looks odd with the headers.

On 3/15/2022 1:20 PM, Stephen Frye via Rushtalk wrote:
> John, I agree with you on this point.  It’s the same objection I have 
> when people tell me I have to live according to their religion.  It’s 
> off topic, I know.  But the underlying principles are the same.  None 
> of us liked to be “forced”.  We push back as hard as, if not harder 
> than, we are being pushed.  Pushers don’t see that, but the pushees 
> definitely do.
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* John A. Quayle <quaylejohn at aol.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 14, 2022 7:23:21 PM
> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <rushtalk at csdco.com>
> *Cc:* stephen.frye at outlook.com <stephen.frye at outlook.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They 
> are eviroromentally a disaster)
> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They 
> are environmentally a disaster)
> I have no problem with electric vehicles. Forcing them on us before 
> they become practical (price and infrastructure) is my issue. Nor do I 
> have a problem trying to clean up the earth but there has to be a 
> cost/benefit analysis component. China and India are the world's 
> largest polluters and are exempt from any "world regulations." The US 
> has reduced its pollution output more than any other industrialized 
> country. Humankind has always figured out solutions to problems and I 
> doubt this will be the exception. However, the human race becoming 
> extinct in the next 12, 10 or 8 years, whatever the current leftist 
> hysteria is, has been predicted since the 70's and we are still here 
> and getting better.
> On 3/14/2022 5:47 PM, Stephen Frye wrote:
>> I can’t because …
>> There are indeed serious issues examine and solve before making the 
>> knee-jerk jump to electric. What I don’t understand is digging in our 
>> heels and sticking our fingers in our ears. This is going to happen. 
>> As fast as Biden’s green team wants it?  No.  But to me this exactly 
>> fits into the oft heard paradigm “if the solution isn’t 100%. The we 
>> shouldn’t do anything.” This planet will run out of oil. When? I 
>> doubt anybody knows. I doubt anybody really wants to know.
>> Stephen, I am not a geologist, nor do I play one on TV. The brother 
>> of one of my best friends is a geologist and tells me that the United 
>> States alone, has 300 years worth of crude beneath its crust. I have 
>> no basis for comparison, so I've taken his word on this - wrong or 
>> right. I have no "correct perspective here. Yes, I'm against EVs 
>> because I feel they are being shoved down our throats, whether we 
>> want them or not. When someone forces me to do something against my 
>> will, I tend to get combative. Just wait until my kids put me in a 
>> retirement home in a few years (10? 15??). I will be a handful! 
>> Dennis is correct......we lack the proper capacity on our grid to 
>> handle more than 10% of EVs..............
>> It’s like knowing when we are going to die. I agree that having 
>> electric forced on us causes immediate and harsh push back. 
>> Especially when it comes to oil. Oil is viewed by many as life blood. 
>> I remember when I was really young I asked my dad if we would run out 
>> of gas. His answer: not in our lifetime. Such a typical response. We 
>> preach against the growing debt being kicked down the road, but we 
>> live and breathe kicking oil down the road - “ain’t my problem.” 
>> Again, I am not suggesting some quantum leap into electric. That will 
>> backfire. But I can’t condone “I don’t wanna “ either.  I agree; 
>> right now there seems to be plenty.  But we will run out. Why in the 
>> world would we sit back and ignore that reality when we have the 
>> opportunity to aggressively prepare? At the end of the day, like so 
>> much else, our politics too often drive our thinking.
>> Get Outlook for iOS 
>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fo0ukef&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb3627ad0823f401b567f08da062aa090%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637829077392989425%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=nvTZF0DuQQtG6J4Daa09IiVuso4LPFGOqQwMKAXrowE%3D&reserved=0>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Rushtalk <rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> 
>> <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> on behalf of Dennis Putnam via 
>> Rushtalk <rushtalk at csdco.com> <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 14, 2022 2:23:28 PM
>> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com> 
>> <rushtalk at csdco.com> <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>> *Cc:* Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net> <mailto:dap1 at bellsouth.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They 
>> are eviroromentally a disaster)
>> The big one being that the electrical grid cannot handle the required 
>> load.
>> On 3/14/2022 5:18 PM, Stephen Frye via Rushtalk wrote:
>>> John, if I didn’t know better, I’d say you are against electric 
>>> cars.  E=MC2 won’t tell us much - don’t forget the denominator. 
>>>  F=MA is a little better, but either way the claim is correct: same 
>>> amount of energy.  But there are losses all along the way, and he 
>>> itemizes one approach, but ignores the analogous itemization on the 
>>> other.  Textbook example of pre-existing bias.  He also overlooks 
>>> and misstates a lot of quite pertinent information.
>>> Get Outlook for iOS 
>>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fo0ukef&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb3627ad0823f401b567f08da062aa090%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637829077392989425%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=nvTZF0DuQQtG6J4Daa09IiVuso4LPFGOqQwMKAXrowE%3D&reserved=0>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Rushtalk <rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> 
>>> <mailto:rushtalk-bounces at csdco.com> on behalf of John A. Quayle via 
>>> Rushtalk <rushtalk at csdco.com> <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 13, 2022 12:47:36 PM
>>> *To:* rushtalk at csdco.com <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com> 
>>> <rushtalk at csdco.com> <mailto:rushtalk at csdco.com>
>>> *Cc:* John A. Quayle <quaylejohn at aol.com> <mailto:quaylejohn at aol.com>
>>> *Subject:* [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage device! (They are 
>>> eviroromentally a disaster)
>>>>> 	Batteries, they do not make electricity – they store electricity 
>>>>> produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural 
>>>>> gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV 
>>>>> is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.
>>>>> Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. 
>>>>> is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the 
>>>>> EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?"
>>>>> Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of 
>>>>> energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a 
>>>>> mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what 
>>>>> produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the 
>>>>> battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank 
>>>>> in a car.
>>>>> There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. 
>>>>> The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and 
>>>>> lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, 
>>>>> lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity 
>>>>> chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy 
>>>>> metals.(empahsis: MINE!- JAQ)
>>>>> Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, 
>>>>> usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The 
>>>>> United States uses three billion of these two battery types a 
>>>>> year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. 
>>>>> California is the only state which requires all batteries be 
>>>>> recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, 
>>>>> here is what happens to them.
>>>>> All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in 
>>>>> use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a 
>>>>> flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery 
>>>>> runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it 
>>>>> as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of 
>>>>> electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds 
>>>>> inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The 
>>>>> metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined 
>>>>> flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak 
>>>>> from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually 
>>>>> rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in 
>>>>> the landfill.
>>>>> In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones 
>>>>> used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about 
>>>>> those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we 
>>>>> do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.
>>>>> But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about 
>>>>> electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer 
>>>>> look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three 
>>>>> technologies share what we call environmentally destructive 
>>>>> production costs.
>>>>> A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of 
>>>>> a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty 
>>>>> pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 
>>>>> pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. 
>>>>> Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.
>>>>> It should concern you that all those toxic components come from 
>>>>> mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you 
>>>>> must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds 
>>>>> of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 
>>>>> 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 
>>>>> pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."
>>>>> Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a 
>>>>> battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution 
>>>>> controls, and they employ children who die from handling this 
>>>>> toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of 
>>>>> the cost of driving an electric car?"
>>>>> I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building 
>>>>> the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they 
>>>>> intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim 
>>>>> this is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not. This 
>>>>> construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me 
>>>>> tell you why.
>>>>> The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to 
>>>>> process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure 
>>>>> enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, 
>>>>> sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, 
>>>>> and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, 
>>>>> copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which 
>>>>> also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, 
>>>>> and the panels cannot be recycled.
>>>>> Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental 
>>>>> destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) 
>>>>> and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of 
>>>>> iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths 
>>>>> neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 
>>>>> pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be 
>>>>> replaced. We cannot recycle used blades.
>>>>> There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look 
>>>>> beyond the myth of zero emissions.
>>>>> *"Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal but when you look 
>>>>> at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, 
>>>>> you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's 
>>>>> environment than meets the eye, for sure.*
>>>>> Sent from Mail 
>>>>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb3627ad0823f401b567f08da062aa090%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637829077392989425%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=T929PB86tYGR%2FrSAnGibHmoXIFEFvriIyIQBb0Ju7pU%3D&reserved=0> 
>>>>> for Windows
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