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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">I have no problem with electric
      vehicles. Forcing them on us before they become practical (price
      and infrastructure) is my issue. Nor do I have a problem trying to
      clean up the earth but there has to be a cost/benefit analysis
      component. China and India are the world's largest polluters and
      are exempt from any "world regulations." The US has reduced its
      pollution output more than any other industrialized country.
      Humankind has always figured out solutions to problems and I doubt
      this will be the exception. However, the human race becoming
      extinct in the next 12, 10 or 8 years, whatever the current
      leftist hysteria is, has been predicted since the 70's and we are
      still here and getting better.<br>
      <br>
      On 3/14/2022 5:47 PM, Stephen Frye wrote:<br>
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            I can’t because …</div>
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            There are indeed serious issues examine and solve before
            making the knee-jerk jump to electric.  What I don’t
            understand is digging in our heels and sticking our fingers
            in our ears.  This is going to happen.  As fast as Biden’s
            green team wants it?  No.  But to me this exactly fits into
            the oft heard paradigm “if the solution isn’t 100%. The we
            shouldn’t do anything.”  This planet will run out of oil.
             When?  I doubt anybody knows.  I doubt anybody really wants
            to know.  It’s like knowing when we are going to die.  I
            agree that having electric forced on us causes immediate and
            harsh push back.  Especially when it comes to oil.  Oil is
            viewed by many as life blood.  I remember when I was really
            young I asked my dad if we would run out of gas.  His
            answer: not in our lifetime.  Such a typical response.  We
            preach against the growing debt being kicked down the road,
            but we live and breathe kicking oil down the road - “ain’t
            my problem.”  Again, I am not suggesting some quantum leap
            into electric.  That will backfire.  But I can’t condone “I
            don’t wanna “ either.  I agree; right now there seems to be
            plenty.  But we will run out.   Why in the world would we
            sit back and ignore that reality when we have the
            opportunity to aggressively prepare?  At the end of the day,
            like so much else, our politics too often drive our
            thinking.</div>
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          Get <a href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef" moz-do-not-send="true">Outlook
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      <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
          face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
          Rushtalk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rushtalk-bounces@csdco.com"><rushtalk-bounces@csdco.com></a> on behalf of
          Dennis Putnam via Rushtalk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rushtalk@csdco.com"><rushtalk@csdco.com></a><br>
          <b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 14, 2022 2:23:28 PM<br>
          <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rushtalk@csdco.com">rushtalk@csdco.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rushtalk@csdco.com"><rushtalk@csdco.com></a><br>
          <b>Cc:</b> Dennis Putnam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dap1@bellsouth.net"><dap1@bellsouth.net></a><br>
          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage
          device! (They are eviroromentally a disaster)</font>
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      </div>
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        <div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">The big one being that the
          electrical grid cannot handle the required load.<br>
          <br>
          On 3/14/2022 5:18 PM, Stephen Frye via Rushtalk wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div>
            <div>
              <div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
                background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">John, if I didn’t
                know better, I’d say you are against electric cars.
                 E=MC2 won’t tell us much - don’t forget the
                denominator.  F=MA is a little better, but either way
                the claim is correct: same amount of energy.  But there
                are losses all along the way, and he itemizes one
                approach, but ignores the analogous itemization on the
                other.  Textbook example of pre-existing bias.  He also
                overlooks and misstates a lot of quite pertinent
                information.</div>
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          <div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
              style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
              color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Rushtalk
              <a class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:rushtalk-bounces@csdco.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><rushtalk-bounces@csdco.com></a>
              on behalf of John A. Quayle via Rushtalk
              <a class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:rushtalk@csdco.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><rushtalk@csdco.com></a><br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 13, 2022 12:47:36 PM<br>
              <b>To:</b> <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated
                moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rushtalk@csdco.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">
                rushtalk@csdco.com</a> <a
                class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:rushtalk@csdco.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
                <rushtalk@csdco.com></a><br>
              <b>Cc:</b> John A. Quayle <a
                class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:quaylejohn@aol.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
                <quaylejohn@aol.com></a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> [Rushtalk] Batteries are only a storage
              device! (They are eviroromentally a disaster)</font>
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                                    <td><font size="5"><span
                                          style="font-size:11.5pt;
                                          font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Batteries,
                                          they do not make electricity –
                                          they store electricity
                                          produced elsewhere, primarily
                                          by coal, uranium, natural
                                          gas-powered plants, or
                                          diesel-fueled generators. So,
                                          to say an EV is a
                                          zero-emission vehicle is not
                                          at all valid.</span></font></td>
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                                      <span style="background:white">Also,
                                        since forty percent of the
                                        electricity generated in the
                                        U.S. is from coal-fired plants,
                                        it follows that forty percent of
                                        the EVs on the road are
                                        coal-powered, do you see?"</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">Einstein's
                                        formula, E=MC2, tells us it
                                        takes the same amount of energy
                                        to move a five-thousand-pound
                                        gasoline-driven automobile a
                                        mile as it does an electric one.
                                        The only question again is what
                                        produces the power? To
                                        reiterate, it does not come from
                                        the battery; the battery is only
                                        the storage device, like a gas
                                        tank in a car.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">There
                                        are two orders of batteries,
                                        rechargeable, and single-use.
                                        The most common single-use
                                        batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D.
                                        9V, and lantern types. Those
                                        dry-cell species use zinc,
                                        manganese, lithium, silver
                                        oxide, or zinc and carbon to
                                        store electricity chemically. <span
                                          style="font-style:italic"><span
                                            style="font-weight:bold">Please
                                            note they all contain toxic,
                                            heavy metals.</span></span></span><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
                                        <span style="font-family:Times
                                          New Roman,Times,serif">
                                          <span style="font-weight:bold"><span
                                              style="font-style:italic">(empahsis:
                                            </span>
                                          </span></span></span><span
                                        style="font-weight:bold"><span
                                          style="font-style:italic"><span
style="text-decoration:underline"><span style="font-family:Times New
                                              Roman,Times,serif">MINE</span></span><span
                                            style="font-family:Times New
                                            Roman,Times,serif">!</span></span><span
                                          style="font-family:Times New
                                          Roman,Times,serif"></span></span><span
                                        style="font-family:Times New
                                        Roman,Times,serif">
                                        <span style="font-weight:bold"><span
                                            style="font-style:italic">-
                                            JAQ</span></span></span><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">)</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">Rechargeable
                                        batteries only differ in their
                                        internal materials, usually
                                        lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide,
                                        and nickel-cadmium. The United
                                        States uses three billion of
                                        these two battery types a year,
                                        and most are not recycled; they
                                        end up in landfills. California
                                        is the only state which requires
                                        all batteries be recycled. If
                                        you throw your small, used
                                        batteries in the trash, here is
                                        what happens to them.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">All
                                        batteries are self-discharging.
                                        That means even when not in use,
                                        they leak tiny amounts of
                                        energy. You have likely ruined a
                                        flashlight or two from an old,
                                        ruptured battery. When a battery
                                        runs down and can no longer
                                        power a toy or light, you think
                                        of it as dead; well, it is not.
                                        It continues to leak small
                                        amounts of electricity. As the
                                        chemicals inside it run out,
                                        pressure builds inside the
                                        battery's metal casing, and
                                        eventually, it cracks. The
                                        metals left inside then ooze
                                        out. The ooze in your ruined
                                        flashlight is toxic, and so is
                                        the ooze that will inevitably
                                        leak from every battery in a
                                        landfill. All batteries
                                        eventually rupture; it just
                                        takes rechargeable batteries
                                        longer to end up in the
                                        landfill.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">In
                                        addition to dry cell batteries,
                                        there are also wet cell ones
                                        used in automobiles, boats, and
                                        motorcycles. The good thing
                                        about those is, ninety percent
                                        of them are recycled.
                                        Unfortunately, we do not yet
                                        know how to recycle single-use
                                        ones properly.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">But
                                        that is not half of it. For
                                        those of you excited about
                                        electric cars and a green
                                        revolution, I want you to take a
                                        closer look at batteries and
                                        also windmills and solar panels.
                                        These three technologies share
                                        what we call environmentally
                                        destructive production costs.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">A
                                        typical EV battery weighs one
                                        thousand pounds, about the size
                                        of a travel trunk. It contains
                                        twenty-five pounds of lithium,
                                        sixty pounds of nickel, 44
                                        pounds of manganese, 30 pounds
                                        cobalt, 200 pounds of copper,
                                        and 400 pounds of aluminum,
                                        steel, and plastic. Inside are
                                        over 6,000 individual
                                        lithium-ion cells.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">It
                                        should concern you that all
                                        those toxic components come from
                                        mining. For instance, to
                                        manufacture each EV auto
                                        battery, you must process 25,000
                                        pounds of brine for the lithium,
                                        30,000 pounds of ore for the
                                        cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for
                                        the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of
                                        ore for copper. All told, you
                                        dig up 500,000 pounds of the
                                        earth's crust for just - one -
                                        battery."</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">Sixty-eight
                                        percent of the world's cobalt, a
                                        significant part of a battery,
                                        comes from the Congo. Their
                                        mines have no pollution
                                        controls, and they employ
                                        children who die from handling
                                        this toxic material. Should we
                                        factor in these diseased kids as
                                        part of the cost of driving an
                                        electric car?"</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">I'd
                                        like to leave you with these
                                        thoughts. California is building
                                        the largest battery in the world
                                        near San Francisco, and they
                                        intend to power it from solar
                                        panels and windmills. They claim
                                        this is the ultimate in being
                                        'green,' but it is not. This
                                        construction project is creating
                                        an environmental disaster. Let
                                        me tell you why.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">The
                                        main problem with solar arrays
                                        is the chemicals needed to
                                        process silicate into the
                                        silicon used in the panels. To
                                        make pure enough silicon
                                        requires processing it with
                                        hydrochloric acid, sulfuric
                                        acid, nitric acid, hydrogen
                                        fluoride, trichloroethane, and
                                        acetone. In addition, they also
                                        need gallium, arsenide,
                                        copper-indium-gallium-
                                        diselenide, and
                                        cadmium-telluride, which also
                                        are highly toxic. Silicon dust
                                        is a hazard to the workers, and
                                        the panels cannot be recycled.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">Windmills
                                        are the ultimate in embedded
                                        costs and environmental
                                        destruction. Each weighs 1688
                                        tons (the equivalent of 23
                                        houses) and contains 1300 tons
                                        of concrete, 295 tons of steel,
                                        48 tons of iron, 24 tons of
                                        fiberglass, and the hard to
                                        extract rare earths neodymium,
                                        praseodymium, and dysprosium.
                                        Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds
                                        and will last 15 to 20 years, at
                                        which time it must be replaced.
                                        We cannot recycle used blades.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <span style="background:white">There
                                        may be a place for these
                                        technologies, but you must look
                                        beyond the myth of zero
                                        emissions.</span><br>
                                      <br>
                                    </span><strong><span style="">"Going
                                        Green" may sound like the
                                        Utopian ideal but when you look
                                        at the hidden and embedded costs
                                        realistically with an open mind,
                                        you can see that Going Green is
                                        more destructive to the Earth's
                                        environment than meets the eye,
                                        for sure.</span></strong></font><span
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